SUMMARY KEYWORDS
lie, truth, life, relationship, absolutely, behaviour, conversation, people, partner, observing, honest, admits, fibs, true, big, human trait, point, telling, suppose, protect
SPEAKERS
Martin O'Toole, Terae De Cou
Martin O'Toole 00:26
hi Terae.
Terae De Cou 00:28
Hey Martin.
Martin O'Toole 00:30
How are you doing?
Terae De Cou 00:33
I'm doing fantastic. It's so good to see your face. It's been such a long time since we've gotten to have a proper chinwag.
Martin O'Toole 00:41
Yeah. And our last chinwag was about aliens, wasn't it? Do aliens exist?
Terae De Cou 00:48
It was it was it was a wonderful chinwag.
Martin O'Toole 00:53
I really enjoyed it. And it was it was most definitely random and certainly different to what we're going to talk about today. Because I was, I was thinking, I don't know why I was thinking about this. Well, I guess we'll come on to it because it's a conversation, isn't it? But perhaps we should, perhaps you we should kick off with something else. So, Gautama Buddha once said better is to speak unpleasant truth than to tell lies. Mark Twain said, if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. Frederick Nietzsche said, I'm not upset that you lied to me. I'm upset that from now on, I can't believe you. So what are we going to talk about? today? We're going to talk about why do we lie?
Terae De Cou 01:44
I like that? Quote? I really, really Yeah, that last quote, because I think that's the biggest thing around lying for me is that once I catch you in a lie, the trust it's just it's broken. It's broken. Now that I've clocked you as a liar. You getting out of being a liar. Good luck, sir.
Martin O'Toole 02:06
Where you kind of screwed out? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's my favourite one. I can't remember where I heard the expression. Instead of telling someone that you were angry with them. You say I'm not angry with you. I'm just disappointed. And there's something in in what he says there. I'm not upset that you lied to me. I'm upset that from now on. I can't believe you. Yeah, I'm sorry, Fredrik, I didn't mean to lie. You got me a lie. Now I feel really bad.
Terae De Cou 02:36
And I don't think we mean to lie, though. I think we mean to lie. I mean, there are absolutely 100% times where we mean to lie, we want to protect our image. We want to protect someone's feelings. We want you know, protect ourselves from punishment. But then there are times when it's just I mean, like it feels almost animalistic, primal, instinctual. lizard brain, just boom, oh, a lie just fell out of my mouth. I catch myself sometimes saying a lie. And I'll stop and I'll be like, that was a lie. I don't know why I said that. It's not always a conscious thing.
Martin O'Toole 03:22
But okay, let's unpack that, then. So, so, so by that rationale, we can't help lying. It's just it's a it's an endemic part of being human that we're you think?
Terae De Cou 03:34
Absolutely. It's part of the human condition.
Martin O'Toole 03:39
Hmm, I'm not sure about that. Well, I was a, I was the world's biggest liar. Back in the day. So I think when when I was using, and when I was having affairs, and in dealing with all my addictions, one of which was was sex addiction. I lied all the time. To the point where I think I lied so well, to everyone and to myself that I convinced myself that my own lies were true. Which is pretty good going. But also a bit of a head fuck, because then you start to wonder, what what are the things that have happened in your life? What what's true and what's not because you were so used to telling these lies, but do you know what I don't think that I lie anymore?
Terae De Cou 04:38
I think that's a lie.
Martin O'Toole 04:44
I'm thinking out loud here. I'm totally thinking out loud. But what what would I lie about? What would I lie about? That's a That's a good question. What What, what are the things that we lie about? Let's may perhaps we should start there. Because they're a big lie.
04:59
Terae De Cou 05:01
yeah, there's big lies and little lies, there's lies that men do. There's lies that women do. There's lies that you do at work. And in relationships, there's lies that you do to yourself about yourself. Which lies Do you want to talk about?
Martin O'Toole 05:19
Well, I suppose we should well let's try and talk about all of them and and and ask ourselves all the while why do we lie? So let's let's start with the I'm interested in the lies that men tell and the lies that women tell told to me.
Terae De Cou 05:35
Well, men lies who impress like studies are for sure backing up this whole premise that like men lie just to make their image appear better than it is right? predicts bigger right? My truck's bigger. My bank accounts bigger, my wife's hotter My job's better my golf games better just like this is like a one upmanship. Right, so men will do a lot of lying around how they come across how they appear externally.
Martin O'Toole 06:16
I don't have a truck
Terae De Cou 06:21
you have a motorbike though, don't you? And it's loud
Martin O'Toole 06:27
not it's not allowed anymore. No, I actually had it. I hadn't muffled I had it quiet, quiet, quiet. And because I realised it was. It was quite obnoxious, so obnoxious. But it's only a 250 cc engine. So it's not it's not like a big you know, hungry angry bike, although it is quite a fast motorbike. Yeah. Okay, so what are women lie about that in, in in stark contrast to men?
Terae De Cou 06:56
Women do the lying that they do is really to sort of like protect other people's feelings, right. So like, you know, do I look fat in this? Absolutely. You look fantastic. Girl. Go on. No, you look great. Yeah, absolutely better than cheesecake. So that's the kind of lying they're doing is really in an effort to save face. And this is like, this is also a very stark cultural thing that I noticed among Commonwealth countries, where women won't tell you to your face. Anything. That's the truth, if they think that it might be perceived as offensive or otherwise confrontational. So the lie about it?
Martin O'Toole 07:49
Yeah, yeah, this, there's a lot of truth in that I had a partner who shall remain unnamed. But she, she had a really, for me a very uncomfortable level of comfort with dishonesty. And she lied about everything, you know, and now don't get me wrong. This is there's no judgement here. Because when when we met, we were both we actually had a, an affair, really, I suppose. It's how we started our relationship. And so we were both being dishonest in our own way. But she would she lied about everything down from the from smoking. So she even though she was a grown woman, she didn't tell her parents that she smoked. To using cocaine, she used a lot of drugs with me and drank a lot with me as well. So that was hidden from her parents. In fact, she hid a lot of things from her parents. That was that was one thing, but then I noticed she also lied to her friends about about various things. And it seemed to me, she became so comfortable with lying that that was her new modus operandi, Anna and I remember when she eventually she lied to me about after the end of our relationship she lied to me about about something. And I remember thinking, I think I asked what, why why did you lie to me about that? What made you and it wasn't an angry? Ah, why did you lie? It was just, I mean, I'm genuinely interested. We're no longer we're no longer in a relationship. So what made you feel as though it would be? I don't know appropriate to lie to me. And she said, Well, I just saw that you would be upset about the truth. And, and I found that really interesting because, well, on the one hand, the the older version of me would have been upset about the truth. So there was so there was definitely sense in her thinking there. But then on the other hand, Does that still make the lie? Okay?
Terae De Cou 10:04
No, no, no, no, no, no, absolutely not a lie is a lie, even by omission. A lie is the lie. But that story just confirms that the reason why most women lie is to protect. Right? And and this is why going back to my original statement, why I say it's a very primal lizard brain sort of response that's happening here. Because some times, and I think this might be especially true for mothers. But in general, all women just have a strong desire to protect other people, even if it means telling a lie. Sometimes that lie is really small, about my age or my weight, or sometimes that lie is really big about other partners or infidelity or you know, drug use or something like that, right? Is it okay? I would say lying is lying, whether or not it was done with good intention. That doesn't change the fact that lying is still a bad thing to do. However, if you kind of take everything on a spectrum of like, why was a lie told? I think you can have a metric for which to measure the severity and therefore the accompanying hurt or perceived anguish from that lie. This now comes into things like data analytical. Measuring lately,
Martin O'Toole 11:59
and now I'm intrigued about, about measuring lies and the ramifications of a lie.
Terae De Cou 12:07
Aren't you to be like, if the government lies to us about aliens to Perry off of our last episode, if the government lies to us about aliens? Can you measure that as as the same as your ex girlfriend lying about smoking to her parents?
Martin O'Toole 12:26
Well, I suppose I suppose it's subjective, isn't it? Because it depends, it all comes down to the the effects of the lie. How someone's life makes one feel or the or, or what? What actually happens as a result of that lie? In? Let's face it, governments lie to us about everything. So I think anyone who
12:51
Martin O'Toole 12:54
quite so I think, I think we'd all be we'd all be far better off if we just assume that our governments lie to us about 99% of the things they tell us about. And that would be a safer place to start, because then we're not going to be disappointed, are we? And herein lies a thought, actually. But then I don't I don't wish to live my life this way. By the way, of course, there are people who have been lied to that many times by by parents and family and, and partners and friends, that they choose just not to trust anyone. I'm certainly not suggesting that that's a good way to go about doing things. Certainly, I think that leaves you in a pretty dark place most of the time. But then, it's not okay. To lie to people. So how do we, how do we? How do we navigate around that? Is it around working out the is it being a little more choosy about the people we we spend time with?
Terae De Cou 14:01
No, I mean, to some extent, but I mean, I think there needs to be a certain level of grace given to the fact that this is part of the human condition. We've been focusing a lot on like other people lying to us and how that makes us feel, and therefore, what should the appropriate response be, but notice how we collective we don't talk about the appropriate response for when we lie to ourselves. And notice how we don't make a big deal about it. Huh? So if you really want to, like have an appropriate response to how to deal with other people lying to us, let's first start with how we deal with ourselves lying to ourselves. Can we even notice when we lie to ourselves, can we even catch ourselves lying to ourselves and when we do if and when we do then what?
Martin O'Toole 14:56
Love it. I've got a lot of time for starting there. Well, I'll shoot off of you, if you'd like I, I think I absolutely catch myself. If I if I'm lying to myself, then I can't. I'm going to struggle to, you know, these days, I spent an awful lot of time observing myself and observing myself observing myself. And in that observational loop it is it becomes increasingly more difficult to, in a good way to find myself doing things that are particularly bad for me, if that makes any sense. So yeah, it does matter. Because, because I think there's the there's, there's one ability and another, you know, I'm doing the work. And these are, these are all new tricks that I've started to learn. But there's, it's one thing to be able to suddenly pause and rise to a higher state of consciousness where you can observe yourself. And let's just say that you're observing your own thoughts, you're not observing your actions. But then it's quite another to then realise that you are observing yourself. So you're observing yourself observing yourself. And when you do that, there's a there is, there's a whole other kind of honesty to it. Because you are observing yourself observing yourself, you know. So, if I were to be thinking about a lie, and I honestly can't think that I do do that these days, if I, if I lie, they're white lies, I suppose I certainly do as Kasia tell fibs because we all do, don't we, as you said, there's more a case of, you know, perhaps it's a work related thing. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't reply to your email. I was, I was busy doing something else. Actually, I just didn't want to reply to you. I didn't want to read your email, because it was it was full of banal nonsense.
Terae De Cou 17:02
The most, the most common lie is done at work about why they couldn't work. Most common lies about work. But why they couldn't do that, right? What was this? I'm sorry, I couldn't do that I had a bone in my leg. I have a family matter, or I'm sick, or, or, or or most common lie is to get out of work. Is that right? Wow, I didn't know that. But then I suppose but then if you again, it depends on the kind of work you do, doesn't it? If you if you work as a freelancer or you're
Martin O'Toole 17:42
trying to write books and stuff, then you've less people to the less reason to lie as well, I think because you're in a role where you have you've chosen to be your own boss. Um, yeah. So actually, I, what I what I tend to do these days is actually in those sorts of situations. I just don't even offer up a suggestion as to why it didn't happen, or why it didn't get old. Or I'll just apologise. Hey, I'm sorry. I haven't done that yet. That's it? Yeah. Because the reason it could be, I didn't feel like it. Or, actually, I thought about your face this morning. And it irritated me. So I didn't really want to do any work for you today. But actually, you just don't offer that just don't offer up an excuse. And, and in many
Terae De Cou 18:32
missions, the truth?
Martin O'Toole 18:36
Yeah, yeah, because it's neither a lie. Nor I Well, it's not an excuse, is it? I think that's the thing. You know, I think we are, as you identified at the beginning of the conversation, we're human. And there's nothing we can do to get away from that as much as one might try and do the work even to a monastic level of, of trying to improve oneself and one's behaviour, but we are still human. And one thing I realised having done the monastic work for the best part of the year, which was obviously and also the time I met you, wasn't it in Bali? Actually, in the end, you've got to come back and start interacting with humans. We are here on earth school to to interact with humans. It's there's no and that's Yeah, and that's where all that's where these that's where the lessons are actually to be found. It's not he's not hiding away in a in a cave, meditating or doing silent retreats and in the hills and, and all that as a way of life.
Terae De Cou 19:51
Yeah, it's the social action. It's it's you tested. It's the lying to you and you saying, Hey, that's a lie and be saying all I got Cause why did I lie? And that becoming the catalyst for me to be like? Why did I lie about that? Why should I care? Or you asking the same question and the consequences of that whole behaviour, then being the butterfly effect for why I maybe get coaching on the little white lies that I tell?
Martin O'Toole 20:26
On the on the off, you're fibbing? Well, yeah, but but, but that's, that's the point, isn't it? I think that's, I think the Okay, so I'm gonna, I'm going to flip the script in defensive of a liar for a moment, if a lia is in a relationship, it doesn't any kind of relationship with someone who is easily triggered, for example, so that person therefore feels like it, you know what I lie because it just makes my life easier with you. That's a thing, right? That is a thing. And that's what this ex girlfriend was saying. She didn't realise that I'd spent all of these months doing all of this work in this plant medicine, and, you know, learning how to meditate and yada, yada, so, so she still had this imprint of me. And the imprint was, this just is going to be a, it's going to be a nightmare if I tell him the truth. So it's just easier for me to tell him a lie. So what about that? Because? Because that's something different, isn't it? That's, or is it? Or is it is it is it? Is it a good excuse for someone who's who's comfortable lying.
Terae De Cou 21:35
There's something underneath that, right? The Lying is the response to a root of a problem that has more to do with fear of authenticity, and a lack of courage, if I am afraid, how you are going to receive what I have to tell you, when I'm in my fear state, to, therefore I'm not going to be authentic. And three, because I don't have the courage to deal with whatever is going to come from this interaction.
Martin O'Toole 22:10
Mm hmm.
Terae De Cou 22:13
So there's the work that I would need to do in that situation, right? Why am I living in a state of fear? Why don't I have courage to be my authentic self? Why would I care so much about how you would perceive whatever truth telling I have, when ultimately, I mean, like, first, just to kind of Rewind, lying takes an inordinate amount of energy of the human brain, it's got to come up with a lie, it's got to process the body to like, get in line and not betray the lie. It's got to remember the lie. You know what I mean? It's like, while telling the truth, I think it was Mark Twain Mark Twain's quote that you started with it's like, then you don't have to remember anything, it's so much easier to tell the truth. It literally takes a less intensive process of the brain to tell the truth.
Martin O'Toole 23:06
Completely, it's exhausting. I remember having such complex levels of lies. And I think is a is an alcoholic and addict. Sadly, lies dishonesty go go hand in hand with with that sort of lifestyle, don't they? I was as as you know, I was a high functioning addict. So a lot of the time I was constantly lying to myself about whether or not I had been using, but of course, to my colleagues and to clients, to staff, everyone. And yeah, the whole thing becomes this complex cake, a layer cake of dishonesty. And you have to say, Well, hang on a minute. What did I say about this? And I remember even getting to the point because obviously, I was always drunk or, or high on drugs as well. When you're telling a lie. When you're drunk to someone, then you can't you can't remember whether or not you told which version did I tell that person? I remember thinking, and I would find myself actually saying it aloud. Oh, did I tell you that? Yeah, yeah. You told me all right. Okay. Well, that was a secret. I didn't realise it. I thought I lied to you really? Well. On a live it must be exhausting the new.
Terae De Cou 24:27
Here's, here's the fun thing about lying is that like, sometimes it becomes a game where certain people getting away with a lie becomes fun, right? So you start with lying to your parents. And if mom and dad believe you then Ooh, it's cool. And then as you kind of get older if you could lie to your partner or your boss, so you're like, Ooh, cool. And if you keep going down some paths, right? If you lie to a police officer if you lie under oath If you lie on television, it's a whole different anti system of like, Oh, I did this. And I got away with it. And now because away with it really addicting behaviour, various addictive behaviour, yeah, addictive behaviour.
Martin O'Toole 25:23
That's true, actually. And they and I can think of many occasions when I where I've told some some big Porky pies, as we would say, as we would say in England, guilty, guilty also. And there is a there's a bizarre in the, in the darkest depths of Martin version 1.0, who's this narcissistic, Machiavellian, sneaky person, I would congratulate myself on my ability to lie, I would, I would High Five myself, at times when I if I got away with something. Mega makes me sad to think about that now. Because just one
Terae De Cou 26:11
phrase that you just use to describe yourself and you're lying in your manipulation. I want to just like pause for a second because imagine if you were a five year old, and you were lying about not being tired, you were lying about wanting macaroni and cheese, you were lying about having your homework finished, when you didn't have any of those things or didn't want any of those things? Would you talk to that five year old about the him being a manipulative, narcissistic, dark, shadowy creature? Or would you show passion for that?
Martin O'Toole 26:52
We're talking about different kinds of lives now is it the kind of lies that the sneaky version of Martin used to tell weren't that innocent? So and I think I, you know, I reflect upon my the old version of me often, but I do it with love, and I do it with gratitude. I am immensely grateful to him for for the lessons he taught me. Big. But I also think it's important not to gloss over that that part of me I think you can I think you can talk about yourself, your your past self and your indiscretions, with absolutely brutal honesty. But he doesn't mean I'm beating myself up about it, because I have forgiven him. And as I said, I'm grateful to him for his lessons. But one of these things.
Terae De Cou 27:46
This is exactly the key, everything that you just said about how you revere yourself from the part of you that has come through the monk and into a honest way of living. And you have you know, a certain pride and boundaries and respect for that, right. But you're not being foolish about it, but you're also not turning away from it, you're accepting it. Now. So that's your relationship with your own internal self, your self to yourself about yourself. Now, if you turn that around to somebody else, now, I've just told you a lie. Martin, I'm actually 26 years old, I weigh 125 pounds, I'm a millionaire. Can you show me the same sort of kindness and compassion and boundaries and brutal honesty without pushing me away? That you just did create a version of yourself? Well, I asked a really wonderful question. And I legitimately believe the answer is yes, I can, I can certainly try. And they think for me now the there is that that's the that's the next stage of evolution. For me. It's an it's connected with trying to live a life without judgement, which, of course, is another incredible human trait, isn't it? And it's absolutely part and parcel of living in the world of duality, isn't it?
Martin O'Toole 29:18
But if, and actually I was thinking about this the other day, there's a, I bumped into this chap, here, who stole from me. Last year, he stole a lot of money from me waste all my time, which was equatable to a lot of money. And actually, I did some work for him. Sweat equity, you would call it back in the in the in Turkey, when we were living in Turkey. And then we're sitting at our local restaurant over here a couple of weeks ago, and who's sitting opposite me but the same man. And he's, he's basically decided to come and live here. And he's kind of he's come to live in the town where We live it because we told him we lived here. So it's a very bold move to make and, and the man has stolen from me. And that brought up all sorts of emotions, as you would expect, because it's, it's a lot of this is a high value thing we're talking about here. And I had to, I had to do an awful lot of processing. And actually, you know, I first thing I said was small world, and he sort of like looked to me scowled at me and his partner looked awkward, because she obviously wasn't quite expecting this. And then Jules and I carried on eating our meal. And I'm sort of processing the thing, and I can see him and you know, when you know when someone's embarrassed, so they so they just do this on the phone looking looking busy. Yeah, I'm busy, busy. He's doing that I'm kind of looking at him. She says, Are you you just gotta leave it. You gotta leave that then she said, Because it strikes me as a little bit bizarre that the universe is literally plugged in, right opposite you. And so now you're right. And so I went, Yeah, I'm gonna forgive him. And so and I went, Hey, and I will, I won't say his name. But I went, Hey, buddy. And I was trying to get his attention to and he's looking busy on his phone. He's ignoring me. And his partner is looking at me, and she's tapping him. I'm going, buddy, and I'm smiling. And he just goes, talk to my lawyer. Thank you found your talk to my lawyer. I went, Oh, okay. Well, we could do that. But actually, I was talking to my lawyer. He says, He looks down again. I just wanted to I wanted to welcome you both to Bali, and his partner. So it looks to me as if to say, Oh, God, this is so embarrassing. Yeah, thank you. And she would thank you and I could see but and that's it, he went back to his phone. And we were where we spent the rest of the the meal, you know, just kind of in shock, I suppose. This is this, how this how this unfolded. And we've seen him a couple of times since and, you know, I've actually decided just to forgive him, I've decided to walk away from the whole thing, I was going to sue his company. And I'd been advised that I had an incredibly watertight contract, and bla bla bla bla bla, and I've just decided to walk away from the whole thing. And I have to say, I'm sorry, I digress. Part and parcel of that was the my ability to see his truth. We're talking about lies. But we're also let's talk about truth for a moment. And the point is, His truth is that he feels as though I let him down. And that his business was in trouble is in trouble. If we, if we're brutally honest, it is in trouble. And instead of standing by him, I decided I didn't want to work with him anymore because of his actions and his behaviour. And so he he now feels that I am I've attacked his business that is in trouble. So the threat of legal action is a threat against him, which of course, as you might know, and you probably identify when we start our own businesses, we can often take any attack on our businesses as a personal attack, because it's our business. Right? So So I sat with his truth. And now because my truth is, I did we made an agreement, we signed a contract, I did what I was asked to do. You now owe me this thing. But his truth is, my business can't pay that thing right now. Because we're in trouble and damn you for coming after my business. When we're in when we're in trouble. You are a not a nice person. So the ability to see his truth, even though it's not my truth, I managed to I don't know, it was kind of a transcendental experience. If I'm brutally honest. It was it was a very bizarre thing. But it was a wonderful gift as well. Yeah, obviously, it hasn't got me paid. And this guy still wandering around my local town, looking looking grumpily at his phone every time I see him. But what it has done is what he has done is freed me. Does that make sense?
Terae De Cou 34:35
I think that's what a lot of people talk about when they are about to die, like on their deathbed is when they come to their own truth or some realisation of the truth about their relationship with themselves, the relationship with others, whatever it was, whatever it is, right. That's what helps them calm to peace, that's what helps them come to peace. And if you can get to that point before your die, you're lucky if you can get to that point before you're even sick and on your deathbed without Dettol looming in the distance. Very, very lucky. And I think that's what you're talking about is like, how do we get past? How do we get to the point where we can take a look fairly honestly, at ourselves. And whatever this thing is that this thing could be our relationship with ourselves or others or other people's relationship with other people, whatever it is that we want to look at and get really brutally honest about it so that we can just make peace with it in order to move past it. with really no, no lingering weight on our shoulders. I think that's the that's the little money nugget that you're you're trying to allude to there. Because it's not about lying. Right. The Lying is a thing. Yes. But it's about how do we move past it and just kind of zoom out at the bigger picture. In your particular story? Am I okay, without the money? Yes. Do I still have my house? Yes. Do I still have my my partner? Yes. Am I in a beautiful place? Yes. Do I have friends? Yes. Do I have a job? Yes. Am I okay? Yes. How big of a deal is this?
Martin O'Toole 36:33
Not really. It's it? It's a bluff? Yeah. It's a wonderful observation you made there. And I hadn't realised that I was going to tell you that story, actually. Although I'm glad I did. The beauty of this podcast, isn't it? But yeah, I suppose. Yeah. If you think about it in those terms, then then it's not just about lying is it's about human traits. And it's about our ability to forgive one another for our own humanity. And, and I love how you kick this off, because I think you're quite right to say, Well, surely the first thing we ought to be asking ourselves is how honest are we with ourselves? Yeah, because I suppose if we were to talk about people's lying in a negative way, then we are of course judging them, aren't we? So can we can we possibly judge anyone for being dishonest if we are dishonest ourselves, or dishonest to ourselves? So that's, I think that's fundamentally question number one. If we are honest with ourselves, I know let's say we're not actually well, there's another thing that we've done to be mindful and compassionate with ourselves by not judging ourselves. And of course, I don't know about you, but sometimes I catch myself judging myself judging myself as well.
Terae De Cou 37:57
You caught it a lot of metal Bluesmart.
Martin O'Toole 38:04
Is meta, and I'm not talking about Mark Zuckerberg meta either. I'm talking about real life meta. But yeah, but these are the these are the exercises, aren't they? Certainly, for me, anyway, I don't know about you. But I this is the real work. Being able this is
Terae De Cou 38:24
this is the hard thing. This is super hard stuff to do, right? Because, and this is why I'm convinced you still lie. Because sometimes often times, oftentimes, we don't know, our own blind spots, we don't even know that they exist. And without relationships with other people, any kinds of relationships with other people, it's really hard to see our own blind spots. And so therefore, it is really hard for us to take that magnifying glass to ourselves. And so if we have a problem, taking a look at our own stuff, and being honest with ourselves, we are I just don't think it's ever something that we just arrive to, at some point in time in our life and say, Great, I'm done with lying. I'm completely honest and transparent with myself and therefore with others. We think it's a perpetual layering of onions that just keeps coming back where we say Oh, shit, I didn't even think about that, and, and so on and so forth. And so while you might be as transparent as possible with yourself about yourself right now as you could be, it might not be that way. Tomorrow in five years, in two years in five months Since you weren't going to realise how you've been lying to yourself about something, and that's going to change.
Martin O'Toole 40:10
That is maybe I can't say for sure that that is the case, or is not the case. But I think you're, I think you you perfectly within your rights to point out that our mindsets change all the time, our knowledge changes, everything changes, right? You know, we've I've said this 12 times on the podcast, but change is the one universal constant. I think the only the only thing that could, I know we're going to talk about, we're gonna go back full circle in a minute to scale to a scale of lies, I think, because that was an interesting point you made. I think the only thing, the only thing we can do is the work to constantly try to observe ourselves. And if we are constantly trying to observe our thoughts, our deeds and our actions, and asking ourselves, did I lie, then? Perhaps I did just just tell a lie. Why did I tell that lie? And actually then understanding, actually having a very quick conversation with ourselves to explain why that was really was not necessary, then I think that's, that's the work. And actually, and that's that in a way, because you are essentially forgiving yourself immediately. for it, then you're also making an effort to try to, to do better next time. That's, that's it's a practice and vulnerability.
Terae De Cou 41:48
It's a practice Absolutely. In complete and utter, courageous vulnerability. Because when I'm when I when I commit to stopping lying, when I'm saying I'm going to be truthful, firstly, I have to say, I'm going to be truthful to myself about myself. But then I can take that another step forward and say, I'm going to be truthful about myself to another person. So now I can disclose some really vulnerable something to you, right? Just like you were saying, oh, did I tell you that thing? Oh, that was a secret, I thought I had told you a lie, right. But then you can turn it into telling the truth about someone else to yourself, right? So you can go down these categories. And then you can also tell the truth about another person to another person. And these are all I think, like, as you go through one helps make the next one easier, so that you finally get to like the last one, which would be like telling the truth to everyone about everything, right? So you get comfortable first with telling the truth to yourself about yourself. And you will arrive at the place where you just feel comfortable telling the truth to everyone about everything. And that is the practice of personality. Yeah, it is. And to a to a large extent, I do that now. I do it on a podcast. So
Martin O'Toole 43:31
in that regard, the I am frequently asked that question, how do you how do you feel comfortable telling those kinds of truths about yourself? And and the family members? I have who who don't understand it, don't understand why I would be so vulnerable to as to talk about my addiction, or my ability to lie or the fact that I cheated on partners, or I did this? And, you know, actually, what that's I think it says more about them than it does about me, doesn't it? Fear, lacking courage? Right? That's what it is. It's when when you're when you're lying, whether actively or passively lying. You're in a fear state, you're lacking courage, absolutely says more about the other person. And that's why I think that when somebody lies to you, I don't think it's necessarily cause for removing them from your life. Right? I mean, all things with its, you know, rightful measure, but the lie in and of itself doesn't necessarily have to be the catalyst it could be indicative of other behaviour, but it could also just be something that you observe about them.
Terae De Cou 44:52
And maybe you bring it to their attention and in order to have a conversation about it, or maybe you just practice discharge, lack of judgement and forgiveness. It's an opportunity for you as well.
Martin O'Toole 45:07
It is, isn't it as, as all interactions always are and always shall be, because we're always teachers and we're always learners, aren't we, in that regard? I, let's talk about, let's talk about levels of lies. And so what's, what's the, what's an acceptable level of lying to Turay from a friend or a partner.
Terae De Cou 45:31
Um, you know, I have a pretty high level of like loyalty. Need in my my life. So when it comes to like, friends or partners like that lying is really, it's hard for me. But if you you know, if you need to lie about I'll tell you very honestly, my best friend is also She's amazing. But she's also afraid of me, because I have a very strong personality and radical authenticity.
Martin O'Toole 46:19
I've never witnessed and I'm very,
Terae De Cou 46:22
I'm, I have a lot of passion. And I express and I am Mote. And I do so very authentically and loudly. And that scares people. And that scares my friend. And thankfully, she's honest about that. But that also is why sometimes she admits things. And so while she doesn't flat out lied to me, right, maybe No, she doesn't flat out lied to me. But she will admit things because she is afraid of my reaction, she is afraid of my reaction and how it'll affect her or our relationship. Now we're bonded, we're super bonded. So like, I don't think there's anything that can break. I'm sure there are things that can break our relationship, but really, she's up there on the echelons of of friendship. But still, she's afraid. And therefore she admits, aka lies. And I accept that, because I want her to be comfortable. And I don't need I don't need that. From her all the time. There are some things that I need a brutal honesty about, and I'll tell you, but there are some things where you know, if you're lying to me, or omitting something that has really no consequence to my day to day, or my life in any way, like if I can let it go, why wouldn't I? For the peace of the relationship? Absolutely. I would, and they would accept it.
Martin O'Toole 48:03
Yeah, like that. Being devil's advocate for a moment, how honest is that a view in your relationship? I would say it's pretty honest. The fact that I've never said this to her is probably dishonest. But I think there's an unspoken agreement, a contract. I know her truth around being afraid of some of my more animated moments or reactions.
Terae De Cou 48:34
And I think this this goes, this relates to attachment styles, right? So I have an avoidant attachment style. And she has an anxious attachment style, which is the wonderful duo. And so she is afraid that I will disappear, which I do I do this right, I go into my cave, and I turn my phone off. And I have these periods where people can't contact me because it just don't want to. And for an anxious person, friend or partner, of which I have both. That's awful. That's awful. Yeah. And so they too will find themselves omitting things in order to avoid it's because it makes them anxious.
Martin O'Toole 49:26
Sounds quite complex, being your friend. Thankfully, I don't have the same Well, perhaps, maybe we don't because we haven't seen each other. We don't see each other that often. But I don't I don't remember having those kinds of issues with you and we hung out in Bali. But then I think we're both very we're both brutally honest, aren't we? So we we both sort of lay it out and it's kind of a bird there you go. Take it or leave it and we had nothing to lose. In our first meeting. We we we bore our Naked Truths on the first meeting and that set the tone which is
Terae De Cou 50:00
is very different than how most relationships with people start where they keep things very on the surface. Right? True. You and I dove right into like level 10 depths of vulnerability from the get Yeah, yeah, that's a good point, I often
Martin O'Toole 50:20
neglect to consider that we are in a bit of a bubble here in Bali like that, you know, I think if I think back to my life in London, meeting a relative stranger from the foot for the first time, the level of conversation we would achieve in our first interaction compared to where you get to after five minutes conversing with someone in Bali, it's just, it's it's a bubble, isn't it? In that regard, it's an authenticity bubble. So we are very fortunate. So when your friend lies to you what she likes, what she holding back, is she holding back truths about herself? Because she knows that you're going to, you're going to want to give you give your opinion on what she ought to do? Or is it? Or is she being dishonest? About you, both being being dishonest to you. So the lies are you there are missions right, so just just to clarify, their missions are really to protect me, her or us, again, as a woman she is lying in, in order to protect and so I'll give you the most recent example that I can think of.
Terae De Cou 51:42
We've been talking about me being godparent to her two children. And her and her partner really miss misunderstood the importance that role is to me and and how it was played in my life. And we're kind of very being very casual about it. And I sort of really kind of had to lay the kibosh down and let them know that this was this was actually something very sacred to me. And like, if we're going to do this, there's a way to do this. And, and here, again, comes my intensity and my passion, right, calmly, not loudly or whatever. But like, here I am saying, this is this is really important. To me, this is sacred. So if we're going to have this conversation, let's have this conversation. But I want to be at the table with you having this conversation, really. And so that levelled up the the stakes, right in some way. And so the admission started coming out the line to protect me or her or the relationship started coming out, because this process was taking months, they really, really really had to sit down and think about that and what it meant and kind of pick my brain and then marinate on it for a couple more months. And I was checking up on it from time to time. And she was saying, you know, yes, yes, yes, we're, you know, we're still we're still thinking about it. But in the back of what was really happening, which I didn't know, which I hadn't found out was that there were some other considerations around her family that were bubbling up in that family dynamic that made the conversation about me being a godmother kind of difficult, and she was afraid to tell me because she thought that I would in my avoidant attachment style, walk away upset and cold shoulder her and her family for however long. So she was doing it to protect she was doing it to protect me, she was doing it to protect her family. But more importantly, she was really doing it to protect our relationship. And rightly so had she had told me all that I probably would have gotten all you know, animated about it. And she she had such a wonderful grace about it. And I feel like in that situation absolutely okay to lie.
Martin O'Toole 54:29
Yeah, yeah, that's a great example, isn't it? Where, where admitting the truth, actually is is better for people because it it saves a lot of upset and a lot of unnecessary drama. And I'll tell you, Martin, I've seen this personally. I am such an avid fan of direct and brutal honesty, but I was in a bar with the same best friend of mine and I had my sunglasses and my phone next to me calm
Terae De Cou 55:00
couple of older biddies walked in they were definitely on a binder so to say. And she had lifted my glasses and put them in her purse while I was facing away. And a little bit later in the evening, I noticed my glasses were missing. And then I noticed it in this lady's person. I talked to my friend and I say this lady has just taken me for some kind of fool right here comes to passion, and all the estimation and my friends like, no, no, it must be a mistake. And I'm like, Ah, I'm feeling the rage coming on. Oh, she's. Oh, exactly. Right. And you know what she did? She lied. But she did it for the greater good. She lied. She laid on the sword. And she said to this woman in front of me and her other friend. Oh my God, I am so sorry. I must be so drunk that I accidentally put my glasses in your purse. I think I must have just put my glasses. Oh my god, I'm so drunk and stupid. I really can I do mine. And the lady who had everyone, everyone, everyone? Yes, everyone was just a first a little like, ah, cuz we are the truth. And yet she had done it in such a way where like, how could you you know, what other options do you have? And the lady was like, Oh, yes, absolutely, please. Oh, those who go oh, how silly. Right? Oh, how silly. Oh, and my friend went on and on about how silly and stupid and you know, drunk she's or whatever. And the southern lady that CIF, she admitted. I also have a tendency to have loose fingers. I don't know, maybe it could have been me. And I thought in the minute that I heard this, I'm thinking what the eff is happening in this distorted reality where like lying to just brought out an authenticity from this lady was was incredible. She felt this incredible comfortable to do. So. Why is this so? So while lying doesn't feel great. And while we want to like shame it and walk away from it and put it on a cross and burn it. It also also has a role to play.
Martin O'Toole 57:40
Well, it does. And as you said at the beginning of the conversation, it's it's very much a human trait, an entirely natural human trait. I think perhaps the better way to think about it is there are there allies that hurt and their allies that their allies that help and protect and their allies, as you identified earlier that are just neutral that you know, actually it has no bearing whatsoever on my life. So fill your boots if you want to lie that you know that's that's your that's your jam, isn't it? Yeah, certainly. Certainly, as I think I've had admitted since we began the conversation, I must still tell little fibs I must tell little white lies about oh, yeah, sorry, I didn't do that. Or sorry, I didn't call you or sorry. I didn't reply to your message for a whole week that was that was inconsiderate of me. And I'm sure there are still there are fibs attached to them, but they are they are miniscule in comparison to the sort of lies that I used to tell and there's the lifestyle that I used to live and and you know what that's okay for me that's that's that's enough for me to know it because I'm talking about big lies you know, the the old the old Newser used to used to live an incredibly dishonest life and and those lies were hurtful and hateful
Terae De Cou 59:13
to scale does matter if you're lying to yourself about how you like to work with this or if you're lying to you know, this other person that you like, working with them and and that's just to keep the peace, whatever, right. If you're lying to this other person about paying them when you have no intention of paying them that's that's a kind of that's a different magnitude Right? Or when you're lying to somebody about even greater things like Yeah, absolutely. This is Tylenol when in fact, it's fentanyl, right. Even an order of magnitude greater of a lie, right. So the hurt Exactly, and the pain that it can cause the detrimental effect it has is what makes a lie. Really bad. But not all lives are equal in value. No, no. And in that regard, and I'm actually extra glad we had this conversation because it there is no black and white, there are 5050 Shades of lie out there. It's a duality. And it's on a spectrum, right? Absolutely. I'm always going to lie to my boss and say that I love working. Actually know, they know, they know exactly. feel right. But I mean, there's always going to be some lies that I perform just as the nature of living in this society. And that's okay. I'm okay with that. Right? Am I ever going to be dishonest with my partner about my feelings? No. Am I ever going to lie to my friend in order to deceive them? So I can get one up on them? And to maintain control? Absolutely not.
Martin O'Toole 1:01:08
Yeah, that's a good point, actually. manipulation, I think I think using lies to manipulate generally manipulation could be perceived as a, as a as, as not a healthy thing to do for anyone for anyone's relationship. So yeah, I like it. I it, we've managed to dance around the whole concept in an hour and 10 minutes. And I think we've done quite a good job. Actually. I like how you came came full circle around the you know, I don't lie anymore in the beginning to yeah, probably tell a little bit of lies, and I'm okay with where I'm at. And? Yeah, well, well, well, it's because because you rightly identified that the there are different kinds of lies, and actually the Well, I think I use the word fib donee. So if it's, if it's a little white lie, it's a fib. It's it has significantly less impact. In fact, he has zero impact on anyone. And actually, and no doubt about it, there are there are times when it's easier for me, knowing how it might upset someone's sensibilities, it's easier to, to refrain from telling 100% of the truth to that person. You know, why? Why do we always feel the need? Well, we don't always feel the need, do we? But why do some of us always feel the need to tell the brutal truth? And to have the brutal truth out there? What, who is that for? Who does it? Who? Who does it benefit?
Terae De Cou 1:02:44
That's something that's a really, really valid question. That's something that I think, from the experience that I told you about this lady who tried to steal my glasses really opened my eyes to another way of being and interacting with people, where I'm always very brutally honest. And I want that, but what I saw what I witnessed elicited a reaction that I could never, never never get out of somebody with brute force. Never.
Martin O'Toole 1:03:19
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Really interesting. Well, I was thinking about what Rumi said about, about words passing through three gates, you remember this expression, this prose? So he said, When is it? Is it true? Is it kind is it necessary? That's the three the three things to observe gently put your words through those three gates, and, and I suppose that still a really sound piece of advice to ask yourself before you say anything? Is it true? Is it kind, is it necessary? Perhaps that's a place to start. That's a practical utility to take away from this conversation is, okay, I'm interested in what you got to say about lies, you guys. Maybe I do lie too much. So where do I start? We'll start there. Start observing yourself. And I think that's all we really can do is to try and be present. And, and start with yourself. Let's start with the lies you tell to yourself, about yourself.
Terae De Cou 1:04:31
It will when you're ready, move on to the lies you tell yourself about someone else. And then just gradually move up the ladder. Yeah, and if you can, if you can take that Rumi's quote, poem poetry, is it true? Is it kind is it necessary? I think the it's a wonderful recipe to moving through and pass a line at least hurtful unkind, horrible. Not so nice line.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:07
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Thank you, darling. Enjoy that conversation. I did too. That was a completely different
Terae De Cou 1:05:17
completely different session to our aliens.
Martin O'Toole 1:05:24
It was not aliens, that's for sure. Yeah, well, that's the that's what happens with the how to die happy chin works, isn't it? We just, we just let our chins wag and see where we get to. It's good, very vulnerable.
Terae De Cou 1:05:37
I really I really enjoyed it too, Martin, thank you for having me on the show. Thank you for coming again. And I'll consider what we might ruminate over next time. No doubt we'll speak again.
