SUMMARY KEYWORDS
suffering, point, called, talk, good, story, great, consciousness, part, feel, podcast, happened, monkey, world, conscious, conversation, impermanence, evolve, utilities, harm
SPEAKERS
Martin O'Toole, Chris Siracuse
Martin O'Toole 00:00
Chris Im, alright. Hey, how are you? I think I'm bit better than you.
Chris Siracuse 00:33
Yeah, I'm a little hungover. I'm sorry about that.
Martin O'Toole 00:36
What did you do last night?
Chris Siracuse 00:38
I don't know.
Martin O'Toole 00:40
That's never a good sign.
Chris Siracuse 00:42
No, it wasn't that bad. But you know how Bali is.
Martin O'Toole 00:45
I do well, I mean, I know there's that side of Bali. Obviously I don't drink do I so I kind of don't get involved in the shenanigans. Yeah,
Chris Siracuse 00:53
I need to hang out with you more often need more positive influence in my life. I spent the weekend doing working with medicines. And one of the medicines was a South American medicine called happy. Oh, yes. And so sounds a little nasal rice. I was it was very good. Yeah. Wonderful, transformative weekend. You look very cleansed.
Martin O'Toole 01:16
Thank you
Chris Siracuse 01:16
very refreshed.
Martin O'Toole 01:17
I Am. I mustn't grumble.
Chris Siracuse 01:20
You mustn't crumble?
Martin O'Toole 01:21
grumble
Chris Siracuse 01:22
mustn't grumble,
Martin O'Toole 01:23
you've never had that English expression
Chris Siracuse 01:25
does that mean like you can't complain?
Martin O'Toole 01:27
Exactly that nice mustn't grumble can't complain.
Chris Siracuse 01:30
Good. Like you know that I love the British lingo.
Martin O'Toole 01:33
I know you do
Chris Siracuse 01:34
Jargan.
Martin O'Toole 01:34
And funnily enough thinking about complaining that's kind of leaning into what I'd like to talk about today.
Chris Siracuse 01:41
Yes, suffering is that we're talking suffering
Martin O'Toole 01:44
sufferance. Why do we suffer? How not to suffer?
Chris Siracuse 01:49
Okay. Well go ahead.
Martin O'Toole 01:52
Well, well, I suppose the first point is, can we possibly unpack all of the story of human suffering and provide a resolution for it? In an hour?
Chris Siracuse 02:06
I mean, we can certainly. We can certainly try.
Martin O'Toole 02:11
That is the point of the podcast, isn't it? Sort of not doing an hour? You know? I mean,
Chris Siracuse 02:17
if anybody is capable of doing it, it is it is you? Well, certainly not me.
Martin O'Toole 02:23
But with you assisting my friend. And in fact, this is good to be back. Yes, definitely. Yes. Long time since we did one it has been a long time. doing one of these. You've been busy doing your own podcast as well. Yeah. Yeah. I've been slacking a little bit but yeah, well, I know that feeling is hard. It's hard work keeping a podcast going on a regular basis. Yeah. When it's not making any money and you're trying to deal with this stuff.
Chris Siracuse 02:43
It is, is difficult.
Martin O'Toole 02:45
But we soldier on because people are enjoying them.
Chris Siracuse 02:48
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I hope so.
Martin O'Toole 02:52
What are y'all doing a name drop your podcast? Yeah.
Chris Siracuse 02:54
Greener it's actually podcast channel. Three different shows. Okay, podcast feed. Yep. Going for like the old school independent radio experience. It's called greener OS there's rain as a show greener grass. I don't know about the name though. lands you always have to have me repeated they're like what was that might be a bit too late now. Yeah, I think so. I think we're pretty deep in it.
Martin O'Toole 03:16
Although I mean at no point has mentioned it on this podcast if you're just gonna change it, but perhaps if he does, check the show notes and I'll I'll update the show notes. Cool. Cool. So green is
Chris Siracuse 03:25
Greener us Yeah, it's it's it's kind of loosely based around sustainable living one of the shows is kind of longer format but philosophy. One is an eco news. It was supposed to be weekly but as previously discussed having a hard time even up and then one is like a music show. So Spotify does this music plus talk you know,
Martin O'Toole 03:45
I do I do. Have you done the I haven't I didn't get around to doing it. I listened to yours and I really enjoyed what you I think I listened to the earlier ones and you were still finding your feet with it you kind of you were a bit you're having what I would have I think in that situation that sort of doubting yourself to yourself
Chris Siracuse 04:05
that's exactly it. I sat down in front of the mic by myself and was like okay, what am I what am I very strange just playing music. Yeah, so yeah, but let's not dwell on that for too long.
Martin O'Toole 04:18
But let's invite everyone to check out yes, definitely.
Chris Siracuse 04:21
Please check it out. already. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 04:24
So Well, I still to this day, I we are very lucky with the how to die happy podcast because people still coming in coming upon us late in the day and going actually that really that that resonated that educated, that amused that entertained, whatever, and then then they're going back to the Thank you, are you we've got coffees arriving, since for those of you that aren't watching video. I think you brother. So and then people go back over the whole back catalogue. Which is incredible. And they're listening to the show from episode one all the way through. So and thank you to all of you for doing that. You know, humbling to say the least. Yeah, indeed. So people, people still get in touch to say, the Illuminati episode. That was hilarious. The, the German professor
Chris Siracuse 05:20
Oh, my personal favourite.
Martin O'Toole 05:22
Well, there's more than the Illuminati recruitment one. Yeah.
Chris Siracuse 05:26
Yeah. I mean, the Illuminati recruiting one was great. But the German professor I mean, it's just got so many interesting layers. Layers. Yes. If you haven't, listen to that. Definitely listen to the German professor chinwag
Martin O'Toole 05:38
and what was the other one we did with? We didn't go story so it was good but called last night the beat my Beagle saved my life.
Chris Siracuse 05:45
Oh, of course. It wasn't. Yeah. Okay. My second that was
Martin O'Toole 05:51
a good one. Anyway, I guess the point is that Chris and I made some podcast gold earlier in the day and very pleased to have you back brother.
Chris Siracuse 06:00
I'm very happy to be back. It's good to see you. You always bring some some light into my day.
Martin O'Toole 06:05
Especially when you got a stinking hangover.
Chris Siracuse 06:07
Yeah, at eight o'clock in the morning. I know you're, you're a morning person. I am not.
Martin O'Toole 06:11
I am indeed. And I should explain to those listening and not watching where you might hear so you'll hear various noises during the session because when we're actually sitting in half in one of our favourite cafes, comm restaurants in bingeing is called Celes ch E L. A. Actually, you can find them on Instagram, which is at chellah dot barley. And this is where we met, wasn't it?
Chris Siracuse 06:36
It is where we met and did
Martin O'Toole 06:38
and really well, we were we talked about the origin of the how to die happy podcast, really poetic for us to meet up here and do a podcast.
Chris Siracuse 06:47
I think it's such a great idea. I love it. I love being here hanging out with you. We spent many hours showing her talking her work and
Martin O'Toole 06:54
drinking our own bodyweight in coffee. So thanks to Marcela and TA and Diego to for I'll stay I'll say that again. So thanks to Marcela and Diego for allowing us to record here.
Chris Siracuse 07:07
Yeah, definitely. Thank you and to the wonderful staff here at Sharla.
Martin O'Toole 07:11
Who are all legends now then,
Chris Siracuse 07:14
okay, suffering.
Martin O'Toole 07:16
I was thinking about how we start this off in care. And as you can imagine, there are lots of ways I thought I'd start with a poem. All right, man, oh man, out of the night that covers me, black as the pit from pole to pole. I thank whatever God's may be, for my unconquerable soul. In the foot in the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeoning of chance, my head is bloody bottom bowed. Beyond this place of wrath and tears looms but the how hard I can't read the poem roughly.
Chris Siracuse 07:56
I thought that was part of it.
Martin O'Toole 07:58
Chicky reread, just keep reading it wrong. Because I've got my phone down here. Let me do again. Out of the black No.
Chris Siracuse 08:11
Black what happened last
Martin O'Toole 08:12
time, out of the night that covers me black is the pit from pole to pole. I think whatever God's may be for my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeoning of chance my head is bloody, but unbowed. Beyond this place of wrath and tears looms but the horror of the shade, and yet the menace of the years finds and shall find me on afraid. It matters not how strait the gate, how charged the punishments how how charged with punishments, the scroll, I am the master of my fate, and the captain of my soul. Well, William, Ernest Henley will be turning in his grave because I fucked that up a couple of times. But that was Invictus Invictus. Have you heard that poem before?
Chris Siracuse 09:06
I've heard the word Invictus before.
Martin O'Toole 09:10
Well, there was there were the Invictus Games created by the two British Royals. And there's a movie called Invictus wasn't there actually, probably with about Nelson Mandela with Morgan? Yes, yes, yes. Matt Damon, Damon. Matt Damon,
Chris Siracuse 09:32
so Invictus? So this is this is the original. That's the original poem. And what does that what does that mean? What does that word mean? You know,
Martin O'Toole 09:42
truth, freedom, truth freedom, one of those two things. I should have googled that is Latin. Okay? But that's from that's not really the point. I suppose. This, this poem from it. What what did that poem say to you as a matter of interest?
Chris Siracuse 09:59
Can I just look Got it
Martin O'Toole 10:09
Chris is currently reading the poem
Chris Siracuse 10:15
just because, you know, it's a lot going on here.
Martin O'Toole 10:18
But we're at a cafe you got a hangover hangover called new podcast
Chris Siracuse 10:21
coordinate podcast on video. Yeah, right. Wrong video. We're on video. Oh, yeah, I was not expecting that anyway, by the way. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't expecting it, but you forgot. I forgot. Yeah, I should have been expecting it. Okay, so what does this mean to me? Okay, so I'm, maybe I'm just gonna use this as an opportunity to say what I wanted to say about suffering. Why the devil not? Why the devil not. Okay, so my, my dad, for my entire life, pretty much. He would say that the reason that we're here is to help alleviate suffering within ourselves and for others. Right. And for a long time. I, I believe that and to a certain extent, I believe that now. Yep. But what that poem says to me is that that suffering is kind of essential to growth into to the human condition. So I don't I'm not so convinced that we can fully alleviate it. I'm not even I don't even think we should. I think that it's incredibly important. And it's actually it's part of this, this whole thing that we're doing here. So that's what it says to me that through it all, he's like, Well, I'm better on the other end. May I agree? Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 11:35
I agree that so that poen I don't know, can't remember. And I happened upon that point. And it was in around a time. Maybe like, 2011 2012 or something like that. I was right in the waves of my journey of self suffering. Where I was still enjoying my sufferance. Oh yeah. When I say that, I don't necessarily mean that it was conscious enjoyment of it. But it was certainly an addiction to the drama. And, and, and I was very at home complaining to people about my sufferings Well, only to those who would listen and not all of it because obviously, as you know, I was suicidal. And so I was concealing a lot of my suffering. But that at that time, that poem really resonated with me because I felt as though I was fighting the system, fighting the flow. And I felt like that whole fighting the flow story was part of my story, and also felt like it was something to be proud of. There's this tattoo Well, actually, I've just had this tattoo evolved. This is now a Mentawi on my arm, yeah. But it was originally the Ingles sign the Greek Inga signs, it just goes like this to, to like a diamond in the centre. And Engels means where there's a will there's a way and that was very much nice sort of like life mission at the time where there's a will there's a way but if you think about it, that's very bloody minded. And, and this poem is actually rather bloody minded as well. Because he you know, he says at one point when what is under the bludgeoning of chance, my head is bloody, but unbowed, almost enjoying the suffering, enjoying the fact that he that he, you know, whoever that he is, is is surviving. Suffering.
Chris Siracuse 13:43
Yeah. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 13:46
So, I thought that would be a nice place to start. And I completely agree with you. I, I'm, I'm, we need suffering. We do. We need to throw away but I suppose the point of wanting to talk about it today is that we don't need it forever.
Chris Siracuse 14:02
Okay, I can get on board with that. So since you referenced a beautiful piece of poetry, I'm going to reference a brilliant piece of 20th century art. The film franchise Mission Impossible. Classic I'm being facetious here it actually is good that I've been mission profound so fucking good. Okay, but there is so it's usually kind of the same thing right? Some terrorists trying to destroy the world. But in one of the films The the plot is the terrorists dude is trying to get these nuclear bombs and plant them in Rome, in Jerusalem and Mecca, and blow them up all the same time, right, all the main holy centres in the world. Okay. The idea being that if all the different religious organisations or all the different religions experienced this great suffering together, then there will be peace. And there's line he says in the film, he says the greater the suffering The greater the peace right now obviously this guy's a psychopathic terrorist. But there's something very profound of that. Also a guru yet also guru. Yeah, so I guess, but the reason I bring that up is because it's kind of in line with what you're saying, right? We have to suffer. I think we don't have to suffer forever, and we don't have to make it worse. Right? This guy, it's like there's already the suffering, that's that's taking place. There's already this flow, like you described, that's happening. So why be a psycho and, you know, blow up? You know, all these all these religious centres. So I think that's the line, right? Like, how do we how do we make sure that we don't make that worse? Yeah, maybe? Like, I don't know.
Martin O'Toole 15:40
I like what you did there.
Chris Siracuse 15:42
But maybe, I don't know. Maybe there's something to indulging in the suffering? Well, I'm not sure about that. Yeah, I'm not sure about it, either. But we can entertain that idea. Yeah, that's
Martin O'Toole 15:51
not my truth. But you just made me think about. So I've got a couple of a couple of quotes here. Because the point is, actually when you dig into religious sins, and philosophy, philosophical discussions about suffering, you've very quickly realised that all religions talk about suffering. So actually, this is a an excerpt from the Koran. So the Koran offers those. It invites us to accept that suffering tests belief. So here you go, every soul shall have a taste of death. And we test you by evil and by good by way of trial, to us must ye return, adding to that, be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods lives and the fruits of your toil, but give glad gut gluten, Allah give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, who say, when afflicted with calamity, to Allah, we belong and to Him, is our return. So there is a reward for your suffering. Well, Christ said the Son of Man must suffer many things. Sadhguru says, As life is death is the awareness of this fact allows you to live life fully and intensely. So he's accepting that suffering is a part of life, but he's also talking about the inevitability of suffering.
Chris Siracuse 17:34
I mean, it is inevitable, I, so I often look to what I mean, you say nature, but doesn't really mean a whole lot. But you know, what I mean, you look to the natural world, and you look to animal hierarchies, or you you look to natural ecosystems that that humans aren't inherently a part of. And you observe and you say, okay, so what what happens there right to those animals suffer? I mean, they do right, do they make it worse than this on themselves? Probably not. Right? They there's a natural acceptance with with other organisms that aren't human nature is brutal. Yeah, it's fucking brutal, right? Like time? Yeah. So what? I guess my point there, like, what is what's the difference, though? Like, what is it that humans do that make it different? Maybe it's just the fact that we're even thinking about it. Like, they don't even think about suffering, right? They just kind of like let it happen. I think you're onto something they have this like ability to sit here and pontificate about suffering and, and that causes all sorts of problems. Yeah. But here we are. But let's keep keep thinking about about let's keep talking about
Martin O'Toole 18:41
it. Yeah, no, but I think you make a good point which, which some might make in debating this with us? Absolutely. That's the case. We are sentient beings with a occasional higher level of consciousness. And yeah, we think about stuff. So while you've got nature out there being totally brutal with itself. Dog Eat Dog. Auntie and scorpion eat whatever scorpions eat? Don't see. Honestly,
Chris Siracuse 19:12
I think sometimes the bulls out there yeah, they're fucking brutal. really brutal. So brutal, especially here. Super brutal. Yeah. Anti down,
Martin O'Toole 19:23
but then why as we know it, well, as far as we know it, then not thinking about stuff. They're getting on with their their functional lives. And that yeah, I totally. I totally think that. I think it's actually the the nature of suffering is in our own interpretation and replay of an event. You know, I've quoted this to loads of times, but this is the wider quote. So this is Gautama Buddha. He said, pain in life is inevitable, but suffering is not the Pain is what the world does to you. Suffering is what you do to yourself. Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
Chris Siracuse 20:09
I'm glad you brought that up. Because I was thinking I was just about to talk about Buddhism and what the Buddhists believe about suffering.
Martin O'Toole 20:16
I'm, it's almost as if we rehearsed this, it is. I didn't
Chris Siracuse 20:19
know. No, it didn't. But yeah, and then that's it, because I think about that a lot. Because for people that don't know, and you can correct me on this, because you know more about this than I do. But the Buddhists believe that, that suffering is about attachment. Absolutely. And whether that's attachment to a person attachment to an idea, attachment to anything in the physical world to form, right. So like that, quote is saying that the world is full of pain, but by by attaching to that, that pain and holding on to it, then we cause ourselves to suffer. So again, the question is, though, is there something to be learned from that? Is there a reason that we're doing that?
Martin O'Toole 20:58
Well, let's unpack what he said that. So, let some like that. So yes,
Chris Siracuse 21:05
I just realised that we can't on the video, you can't see my coconut here. I'm just like leaning down.
Martin O'Toole 21:13
Every time he goes off mic, He's slipping on his coconut. Well, yeah, so let's talk about budgeting for a moment. So in Buddhism, there's, there's a concept known as the Four Noble Truths, and their utilities that directly address physical and mental suffering. So and these are, these are the heart of what his teachings actually lead. So the Four Noble Truths are the truth of suffering, the cause of suffering, the end of suffering, and the shining light of truth on the path that leads to suffering. So, in mice in misspeak, suffering is a thing caused by a thing, it can be ended, and there are things you can do, proactively to end it.
Chris Siracuse 22:00
Sufferings a thing caused by things Yeah, and there can be ended, it can be ended and there are things you do
Martin O'Toole 22:06
to end it. So now, I'm not gonna get I'm not gonna pass, I'm not going to pile into the Four Noble Truths. But as as we know, the show is all about stories and practical utilities. So y'all are invited to check out the Four Noble Truths, because when you read all about the Four Noble Truths, that you will begin to more fully understand what the Buddhists are talking about here. But fundamentally, there are two words one is dukkha, which means suffering. And the other is a Nietzsche, which means impermanence. So Buddha said, the route to all suffering, attachment is the root of all suffering. And so the point is, if we can understand our relationship with attachment, then we can understand that relationship with suffering and we can ease our own suffering. And the key is a Nietzsche, which is impermanence. So everything on this planet is impermanent. My head, this microphone, your coconut, that light, this building, that tree, all the different stages of development, different stages of degradation. And obviously, anybody who knows my story of 15 years of high functioning, alcoholism and drug drug addiction will know that my body was certainly in a stage of degradation.
Chris Siracuse 23:32
It looks so good now, though. I really do.
Martin O'Toole 23:34
I'm sipping my coconut felt.
Chris Siracuse 23:39
Yeah, man, very, very well put. I still keep I'm such a pain in the ass. And I'm sorry for those. But I just I have to. I keep coming back to this idea, though. Do we lose something? When we when we try so hard to alleviate suffering?
Martin O'Toole 23:56
Yeah, I'm glad you you brought us back to that. My belief is we will spend, we can spend our whole lives suffering. Unconsciously suffering. And if we're really lucky, we can have a a moment in our life that invites us to, to change that, to observe it. I can only speak for myself but I you think about many philosophers and theosophical influences for want of a better word. Well, Eckhart Tolle would be a classic example. You know, he hit rock bottom. He was very he was about to kill himself, wasn't he? And then suddenly, boom, it all changed for him. Speaking personally, I hit rock bottom, and I had a loaded shotgun in my mouth, as you know, may see the Beagle from last night a beagle saved my life, saved my life and stopped me from doing it and thank Thank heavens for that Beagle. Because otherwise we wouldn't be here now. Martin version 2.0 with a a more widen perspective on life love the universe suffering hence we're having a conversation and a podcast about it, I wouldn't be able to be doing any of this it had I blow my brains out back then in whenever it was around 2013 2015 15 I can't remember. But the point is some of us are lucky enough to have an experience. It could be for some people, it's just a bizarre epiphany moment comes out of nowhere. For some of us we get so so so low in our in our lives, that the only way is either end, poor or rise. And that's what happened for me. And so now I feel like I've done a lump of suffering. Kind of I don't I no longer choose to have the same relationship with suffering. Now, you tell me Jules has died in a motorbike accident. I'm human. So of course there's going to be a level of suffering there is going to be an intense suffering. My fiance is dead right? Or you tell me my dad died over in the UK? But do I? Do I let those things collapse my whole world? Or do I begin two in a kind of a I suppose to some to some people a bizarre way. Do I plan for that now? Is my dad gonna die? Yes, it's my fiancee gonna die. Yes, you're gonna die. Yes. Am I gonna die? Yeah, my I break this arm. My eyelids these fingers. Yes.
Chris Siracuse 26:50
Not sure why you're excited when you say
Martin O'Toole 26:52
I'm celebrating the potential. The impermanence of everything.
Chris Siracuse 26:57
Celebrating the impermanence of everything right. I actually love that. There's there's a soundbite for the promotion of this episode. No, I think that's a really great way to look at it is reevaluating our relationship with suffering. Because it is part of life. There's no getting around it and we should we shouldn't want to get around it. So you're you're speaking we're speaking the same the same language I think,
Martin O'Toole 27:23
yeah. Which coming at it from, from Chris's angle and mountains. And yeah, that's the beauty of truth isn't it?
Chris Siracuse 27:28
Is the beauty of truth, isn't it?
Martin O'Toole 27:32
Your English accent doesn't get any better.
Chris Siracuse 27:37
I was seen a British girl for a little bit, though. So you would think it was practising. Here's a pretty light. But I digress. Okay, so what was I gonna say? I was gonna say something I totally forgot. You were
Martin O'Toole 27:48
saying we were meeting in the middle. I think maybe in the middle. So I just I'm, I'm celebrating impermanence as a shifted perspective,
Chris Siracuse 27:56
oh, that's what I wanted to ask. So I thought it was interesting that you wanted to talk to me about suffering. So why? Why is that? Well, that's a good question. You can you can be completely honest with me, because you know, probably more than most people, I think that I've I've shared a lot with you things that I've never shared with anybody else. Or very few people, you know that I have a difficult relationship with suffering. And I thought it was very fitting, and I actually feel very flattered and honoured that you wanted to take on such a big topic with me. So I was wondering what was going through your head when you asked me to do an episode about suffering?
Martin O'Toole 28:33
Honestly, the majority of it was intuition. I figured I intuited the you'd be the guy to have this conversation with. But yes, of course. So I do. I don't know your backstory. And since you've invited us to have that conversation, when we first met you were in a real dark place, I think, even when we were working together on the podcast. And I think, yeah, I think you were really struggling with that struggling with the suffering. And perhaps you certainly weren't celebrating it, but I don't know. It felt to me, like you were stuck in a loop. And you want it to get out where you couldn't get out? Yeah. And, you know, in Part I, in part, I guess, actually, all of these conversations we're having on a daily basis about self care and going inward and you know, doing the work and and having these conversations with other people about human traits. Probably brought up a lot for you.
Chris Siracuse 29:31
Yeah, yeah, it did. You recognise that? I didn't. I didn't even think about that. Is silly as that sounds right. It didn't even it didn't even occur to me until you said it. And I was like, Oh, yeah. Wow, this is? Yeah, it's a lot. And that's part of why I had to step away. You knew that. I did. You knew that before? I did. And but yeah, yeah. So okay, that makes sense. Then I figured that's kind of what it was. Yeah. So you I have an interesting relationship with suffering. I used to sew when I was a kid, my both my parents grew up very poor, right? My dad grew up in the projects in New York, my mom grew up in middle of America, you know, very poor rural area. And I never had to experience that level of poverty. You know, my parents were kind of solid middle class, they always took very good care of us. But I always kind of like was one generation removed from poverty. And I had this belief that I needed to suffer. And I remember very, very clearly being in my early 20s, and really feeling like, oh, I need to know what it's like to not have things I lived in my car for about two months, not because I didn't have them, well, I didn't have the money really. And I was living in California, you know, California is super expensive. But I remember like, very, very explicitly saying to myself, like, I need to know what it feels like to not have a house, I need to know what it feels like to not know where my next meal is coming from, because my parents did such a good job of insulating me from that.
Martin O'Toole 31:03
But so did you feel that that would help you identify with them? Or was it just more a case of they suffered? So why shouldn't Hey,
Chris Siracuse 31:10
yeah, yeah, I think that it was it was both I think more of the latter, that they suffered. And so many people around the world are suffering. And this gets to this idea of the shared a shared consciousness and a shared, however, you believe that we do this whole thing together as humans, because a lot of people that there's there's still the separations, right? Yeah, even if you're pretty deep into the spiritual stuff, a lot of people still think, well, I'm still an autonomous being, right, there's still physical boundaries between my body and your body. The more that I get into the stuff, the more people I talk to about this stuff, the more I experienced in the world, the more I really believe that like, we this is gonna sound so trite, but it's so true that we are, we are one, for sure. And we have to kind of all go through these things together. So I think that was what I was what I was going for, like there is all this suffering in the world, like, let me have my little piece of it, because it's not really fair. If we're all one organism, one human organism, then I need a part of this too. But I guess that's the question like, that's, that's very intentional. And that's almost that's kind of, I'm kind of contradicting myself, because the natural series of events that brought me to the place I was gay, like, it protected me from that. So I'm, in some ways kind of going against the natural order by by interrupting that whole chain of events and saying, no, actually, this is I want this suffering, bring it on, bring it on. But is that? I don't know. Like, I don't know how to feel about that. I don't know what to think about it. I don't know if that's a if that's the proper way to go about things. But I did it,
Martin O'Toole 32:53
I think to invite well, that Okay, let's go back a step. Because, because I love what you just said that. And incidentally, there is nothing trite about saying we are one there is nothing. There's no cliche in saying we're all connected. Frankly, we all need to say a lot more. Yeah, we have a strange relationship, as a species with love, and with authenticity with open heartedness. And I understand why we do because, hilariously, we've suffered. So many of them, many of us have, we have closed hearts, but the only way we're going to progress and evolve. And my god we need to evolve as as a species and as a collective consciousness as it is if we all start to have more of these kinds of conversations, right? Totally agree with you. In we live in a realm of separation of duality. There's there's black, white, there's light, dark, there is truth and lies. And there is suffering and happiness or pain and happiness. And we experienced this in an isolated way often and actually, to fully understand you. And him and her and me, for us all to understand one another. We absolutely must experience some of the same things. Now obviously, we're thinking about some of the more extreme events like murder, rape, paedophilia, and or some of the nastiest stuff that happens on the planet, then. I don't imagine we would opt for that.
Chris Siracuse 34:40
Now, it's not ideal. No,
Martin O'Toole 34:41
no, it's not. But But then on the flip side, we at least can try and put ourselves in other people's shoes. I always say, you know, one of the things I've I've been working on for the last couple of years is his judgement. You know, I was very judgmental, and I was very judgmental of others and is very judgmental of myself. And that's actually quite an interesting point. Because even if you get to the point where you're not judging others, and you're still judging yourself, you're still disturbed, you're still living a life of duality. So I think to, to always be trying to fully understand other people's positions is a beautiful place to be, you might not always get it, because we're human. Right? You know, we're humans having a human experience with all of the same human traits and suffering being one of them. And we all share that, that that trait, but at least if we're trying to understand what's happening for Chris, and we're trying to understand what's happening for Martin and we happen upon one another on a Tuesday morning or a Monday morning and and we don't know the backstory of one another so in I was thinking about it's like an iceberg, isn't it when you when you you meet meet up with somebody, there's there's an iceberg, there's there's what they're projecting at the top of the iceberg for you in that particular experience. And then under the oceans, this entire story might be the story of their mourning their week, their month, their whole life, and obviously, and that could be a story of suffering. So we've got a we've got to try to, to care about that. With an approach it with compassion.
Chris Siracuse 36:20
Yeah, absolutely. Again, very well said, we do come against this problem, though, which is as a functioning society, or a society that that aspires to function paid to vote. Yeah, right. Yeah, I have I have a society that aspires to be functional. I'll take that one. Okay, that's better. Yeah. Yeah, we have to have certain standards. And there has to be there has to be a line for certain things, right. I mean, you brought up murder and rape philia. And this is a this is something that I think a lot about, which is, how far does that acceptance go and that compassion go? Because that's really the big struggle? Is it some people are, they take this more empathetic view when it comes to how we arrange ourselves into societies and into communities? And they say, Okay, well, we, we may not accept this, this behaviour. But we have compassion for this part of what's going on in America right now. I have a lot of DBAs around the country that have recognised that there is a incarceration problem, especially among young black men. And they've said, Okay, well, we're going to be very accepting when it comes to to a lot of young black men when it comes to the crimes they commit, which is a major shift. Some people in America think that that's not the best way to go about it, you know, they're kind of hardcore law and order, like punish criminals. And I'm so split on it. Because of course, if somebody does something really awful, you have to separate them from society. But it you also have to give them the chance to grow and evolve and you got to you got to show them compassion and say, now that you can, you can have, you can find a different way. So where's that line? And of course, there's like every society defines it for themselves. But you see, what I'm saying I do is
Martin O'Toole 38:10
a wonderful meander. Conversational meander, I have a I suppose it could be a fairly black and white perspective on that. We, in certain countries will say so called civilised societies have a set of laws. And they've been defined by the governments and by and by that their friends in the corporations and the central banks, fuckers. And so you can go to prison for all manner of things. Let's talk about some of the things you can go for prison, go to prison for that. You can go to prison for tax evasion. That's interesting, because I believe taxes theft, not the other way round. You can go to prison for working with psilocybin mushrooms. You can go to prison for smoking marijuana, or providing marijuana or psilocybin mushrooms. You can go to prison for not paying your parking fines if you get enough for them. I think you get where I'm going there. The prisons are full, in part because we have so many absolutely insane laws, actually, that come down to governments wishing to controllers are way beyond the parameters of what they should be allowed to control. And also for we're also being imprisoned for doing things that we ought to have the choice. Yeah, yeah. About. So that's what that's one thing. I'm not saying that's why prisons are full, but I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons why prisons are full. So all of those laws need changing. All of that stuff needs decriminalising not even decriminalising it It shouldn't even be on the radar. If somebody wants to pick psilocybin mushrooms from the field next door, cultivate them, and then distribute them amongst some of their conscious friends who then want to do a psilocybin journey that's got no US nature and even be on the radar for a government. Yeah, and that person certainly shouldn't be facing time in prison. That's insane. Now, on the other hand, I believe in universal law, and fundamental universal law is do no harm. Now, if you are someone who chooses to do someone else harm, then yeah, I absolutely believe there ought to be some sort of a system for them. What it is still up for debate, do you kill them? As some governments do? I don't believe that's the way do you physically harm them? I don't believe that either, actually. And I used to be a very violent man, you know that. But I now believe that violence does beget violence. And Ghandi say, an eye for an eye and makes the whole world blind. So then, obviously, it comes back down to empathy, compassion, and education, you know, actually do do all of these people gonna be going around beating each other, shooting each other, killing each other? I doubt it. Well, I know for a fact their higher self doesn't want that. Actually, their higher conscious self wants peace and love, and unity. But they're so lost in the separation story. And of course, in fight or flight, trying to survive in sometimes in war zones, right. You know, it's understandable. So I think we've, it's a complex thing to unpack.
Chris Siracuse 41:42
No, it's good, though. So getting back to the suffering then. So when you when when anybody inflict suffering on another human being, that's kind of where where we draw the line and say, I mean, if you do no harm, do you no harm. So okay, so I'm gonna I don't like saying play devil's advocate, because I don't even know what that fucking means. I guess I do. Devil's Advocate, whatever.
Martin O'Toole 42:06
Representing the devil representing the devil in a story of good.
Chris Siracuse 42:10
Okay. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Yeah. Advocate devil. Yeah. Two simple words. I should have been able to figure that out.
Martin O'Toole 42:15
Yeah. Although I'm with you. Because actually, it's not. Well, we there was a dualistic perspective, isn't it? Yeah. It's not good. It's not good versus bad in this.
Chris Siracuse 42:24
Exactly. So what was I gonna say, Oh, well, this idea that, okay, so if we believe that there's suffering, right, and we believe that the human experience is this is the spectrum. And on one side of that spectrum, there are some really nasty things. You know, we don't I don't want to call them bad, but it is what we would what we would characterise as bad or negative, destructive, right? The other and we would we would call these good things, right? They're, they're healthy, they're regenerative. It's, you know, the force of creation, that we would have to say that those people that that inflict suffering on others, and do really awful things actually play a role in in this whole thing that we're doing here. Yeah, that's a very dangerous thing to say. And it's a very, like, I don't even like saying it. But to me, there's no other way to look at it. I had this conversation was somebody a few months ago. And she was she was one of these Boolean types. You know, I don't mean that. And I mean that in a semi derogatory way.
Martin O'Toole 43:28
So that's Ubud. In almost in the centre of the island, right, FYI, listeners, if you've not listened to the show before, you don't know barley geography, but kinda like, I guess it's the selected spiritual centre for the island, isn't it? So yeah,
Chris Siracuse 43:43
exactly. So I put in everybody, hyper spiritual, whatever, anyone that
Martin O'Toole 43:49
was wearing spiritual spirituality and identity. Yeah, yeah, that's
Chris Siracuse 43:53
a great way to put it. I always love talking to you, because I feel like when I don't know how to say something,
Martin O'Toole 43:59
well, diplomatically, you say,
Chris Siracuse 44:00
I'm just gonna be a dick about it. So she was kind of like, semi Ubudian. You know, whatever, whatever. Yeah. But she was she was talking about light and love as, as people like that often do. And, you know, I'm down for that, of course. But she she said to me something along the lines of, well, you know, people aren't born evil, and that they don't it was kind of what you just said that they don't, they're not what they are choosing to do these things, these these awful things that some people do to other human beings. And I don't know how to feel about that. Because if if we really believe what I just said, which is that those those nasty things that are part of the human condition on that other end of the spectrum are essential to this whole process, then we would have to believe that that that, that evil, for lack of a better word is an expression of the God consciousness and is is part of it. Yep. And so what We deal with that, then do we just do our best to that? So it comes back to the same question that we talked about through the episode here. And I don't I don't know the answer. And it is it is difficult for me to sit here and say that because I don't want to believe that I don't want to believe that people are born evil. I don't want to believe that some people are just destined to inflict suffering on to others. But we kind of have to believe that if if we believe that there is that polarity. Yeah, right.
Martin O'Toole 45:30
Yeah, no, it's a really great point to raise. I suppose. One way to start that would be to consider a paedophile. For example, let's let's, let's talk about
Chris Siracuse 45:44
I shouldn't laugh that isn't. Yes. Yes. Let's just the way I'm just to be clear, I'm not laughing about paedophilia. No, I'm laughing, Martin, because you like you look at me and you're like, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna say it because you know that I'm gonna draw the fee. Would I? Okay, go ahead.
Martin O'Toole 46:04
Well, the reason I think paedophilia is probably a good territory to to tackle in a conversation like this, because it's it is it's, I would say unarguably, one of the worst things that here Hank can do, isn't it? Yeah, right. It's abhorrent. It makes makes makes me sick to the, to the soul thinking about it. Well, it's
Chris Siracuse 46:29
such a Yeah, it's such an attack on innocence, you know, in a way that sprays or things aren't. Yeah, it's one thing when when adults do things to each other, yeah, but it's another thing when when an adult does something like that to a child. So yeah, it is so Okay, so
Martin O'Toole 46:45
so so in that, in the context of such an abhorrent concept, what can we what can we ask ourselves about about these people that do these things? And in most cases, they were victims of paedophilia themselves. Now, some people will listen to this saying, I don't care. I'm not interested in lala lala lala, I don't want to hear about how you can intellectualise how you might forgive these people. I'm going to talk about forgiveness in a minute. So just bear with that if we can at least accept that person is likely to have witnessed some extreme torture and abuse as a child. And as a result, their whole psyche is is flipped upside down. Their perspective on what's normal is fucked. You know, and of course, we've talked about this before my perspective versus your perspective is one truth versus another right? So doesn't I'm not right. I'm not wrong. You're not right. You're not wrong. I've got a truth, you got a truth? And I hate to say this, you're gonna have to bear with me, listeners and viewers and Chris, you know, that? Is there truth based on their fucked up experience of being alive. So I'm not saying it's acceptable. That's not what I'm saying. But what I'm saying is, at least it's comprehendible. That because in such situations where humans commit such heinous acts against one another part of the process and is trying to get to grips with this stuff must be at least I think, the early stages is to understand the driver behind it, because a lot of times, so why, why why why did that happen? Yeah, yeah. Well, unfortunately, that's why I happen to happen because this poor person over here was abused as a child, and they've spent their whole lives with it with a completely fucked up perspective of humanity. So I think that, to a small extent, allows us to at least try to understand what happened and why it happened. But actually, we're on to forgiveness. Now, I think which is, which is an interesting place to play. I've got a quote from the cannot handle here. God, rest is self. Letting Go gives us freedom. And freedom is the only condition for happiness is in our heart. We still cling to anything, anger, anxiety, or possessions. We cannot be free. I can't the Buddha said something about anger. Holding on to anger is like holding on to a hot stone. It's only you that gets burned. With had this conversation in a much earlier episode of the podcast. I think it's called how to forgive but the idea of forgiveness a lot of people think forgiveness is about me forgiving you if you did something that upset me. It's not. That's not the point of forgiveness. The very definition of forgiveness is actually about me letting go of something so that I can move past so that I can move on. So this will come full circle to the beginning of what you said there. And that is, actually, it's our interpretation of a different kind of an event. It's our embodiment of the pain. It's our holding on to the suffering the generation and creation of the suffering. But then we hold on to it. And we hold on to it in our heart and in our mind, and in our body. And when we're literally doing body negative and positive energy, which ultimately have left in the body, as many people know, leads to dis ease. So the only thing we can do, and there are utilities for all this stuff, incidentally, the only thing we can do, if we want to live a healthy life, if we want to progress, we want to evolve, we want to rise, we want to go through a beautiful hero's journey is to learn how to let go. And then through letting go. We're not weighed down by those by that negative energy by those negative experiences. And I don't know how this is going to go down with listeners, some listeners will be going nodding go Yeah, I'm down with that. Alright, so the next question is how fine good tech, then there'll be other people saying, fuck that. I don't, I can't possibly get over my suffering. I never will. I've had people say that to me, you know, write for the right on elephant journal, time to time and actually did write an article called how not to suffer. And that was 10s of 1000s of people reading it and lots of people commenting on it, and few people saying I will never, I will never get over what happened to me. And that's their truth. There's nothing I can really do to convince them otherwise, other than to say, well, you can. And also, if you have that mindset, I will never get over this. What do you what are you telling yourself? fairly obvious one, isn't it? I'm choosing to never get over something. I'm not saying we should get over anything. By the way. I'm saying we should go through it. I don't think you can bypass an event, a life event that causes suffering or trauma. I think you got to go through it. The stoics talk about this. Actually, Ryan Holliday wrote a book called The obstacle is the way I don't know if
Chris Siracuse 52:08
I haven't, but I like that title. I really like that title. The obstacle is the way
Martin O'Toole 52:12
obstacle is the way.
Chris Siracuse 52:14
So that's kind of the theme of the episode here. That's what we're both getting to.
Martin O'Toole 52:20
Yeah, that's where we that's what we're debating. So I said a lot there. I think and I've said this before as well. We can either say why is this happening to me? Or we can say what is it teaching me? Actually and this comes down to another little nub that I learned the hard way? Hilariously,
Chris Siracuse 52:40
a nub,
Martin O'Toole 52:41
a nub. Because
Chris Siracuse 52:42
I like a little kernel. Yeah. Okay, yeah.
Martin O'Toole 52:47
Welcome to my Englishness.
Chris Siracuse 52:52
Okay, what's the nub?
Martin O'Toole 52:55
Well, now you see trauma as a gift. And actually, I've spent some time in the last couple of years in meditation, selecting people from my past, putting them front and centre in my mind's eye and thanking them for the gift of trauma. That may sound utterly perverse, or it may sound insane to some of you, but try and dig a little bit deeper and play with it because actually, in going back to life events, in looking at them, trying to look at them with a 360 perspective. If nothing else, at least with the other person's perspective in mind or the other person's story then there's a there is an opportunity there to to have a wider perspective on what happened there's not just ours, which isn't always you know, I always said there are three sides of every story there's his hers and then there's the truth. There's what actually happened the truth the universal truth if you like the full perspective and in seeing those events and those people in a different in a different light have been able to to thank them sometimes in person. Thanks for the gift of trauma, which might sound totally screwed, but actually it's really helped me know I'm down. Get over it.
Chris Siracuse 54:18
Yeah. Yeah. This is this is a tricky one, but I am down I think that's, I've never heard it put quite that way. But gift of trauma. I think you're right. I think some people would have a hard time with that for sure. Because we want we want to grow and we want to progress and we want to evolve and transcend booty and talk.
Martin O'Toole 54:44
It's not Ubudian talk. I know I'm just it's enlightened talk I think and not in a body and way.
Chris Siracuse 54:52
So we do. So we do we want we want all those things. Again, comes back to the same thing like how How accommodating should we be? When I say we, I think I'm talking more about whatever governs a given society or community? Because we look at it that's, that's, that is the government's job or whoever's in charge of, or if it's the government is the people, right? But the collective, then how accommodating should we be when it comes to trauma and suffering? Because like, it may take a parent, right? The parents whole job is to protect their child. But then again, like you're saying, like, there's, I think it was you that said this, there's a fine line between trauma and growth. Right. And it's like, where, again, where is that line? And it is, it is subjective in some ways, right? Absolutely. There are some societies and some cultures around the world that do some pretty fucked up things as standard. Yeah, as standard as like, well, this is what we do. Yeah. And then other societies other other cultures will look at that and be like, Wow, no, that's you're gonna go to jail for shit like that. So I don't know, it's it's a tricky one. Because I, I don't know if I believe in some kind of objective, universal truth. Like what is the I don't even think that we it's possible for us as humans to experience that because we are so limited by these these physical bodies that we're in, in the minds that we have that I don't even think that we can comprehend what that objective truth would be, or that universal truth would be, but we try. We try our best I mean, that's what we're constantly doing. When we organise ourselves into into groups and communities, we try to say, Okay, this is my like you said, this is my truth is your truth, where how can we line them up in a way where we can coexist?
Martin O'Toole 56:40
Love, I love where you go in here. Because and I also love how we ended up doing this in this podcast, because we're talking about suffering. It's all linked. But it's all we're going micro macro now, aren't we?
Chris Siracuse 56:52
We definitely are.
Martin O'Toole 56:53
I think I've already been very outspoken about my concept of so called civilization. I think we got it all wrong. I think democracy is fucked. I think Western society doesn't work. The Crying shame is actually over here in the Far East. We've got all of these societies and countries here aspiring to be like America and the United Kingdom and Europe. Don't you get it all wrong? Please, pretty please don't try to do that because the system doesn't work. And it is proving its failure now. cataclysmically. I believe that decentralisation is the future. And I don't just I'm not just talking about blockchain, although that we the blockchain technology will allow for this to work. I believe, actually, we need to get back to almost a feudal system tribalism, where but tribalism, you know, sons, the cannibal aspect, and all those other, you know, wild and wacky concepts that the word tribal brings to mind. I think we need to reorganise ourselves into small communities. And at that point, the community votes on, on how it wishes to be how it wishes to exist, do no harm universal truth. All right. Should we define that? Yeah, I think we ought to because we're a community. What does harm mean? Well, you're not allowed to kill anyone. You're not allowed to hit anyone. You're not allowed to be a paedophile. You're not allowed to force yourself on anyone sexually. Right? Yes, yes. Yes. You're not allowed to call me names? No, hang on a minute. Wait, well, that would harm me. Yeah. But would it? Yeah, it would, it would really break my heart. Okay. Well, how does everybody else in the group feel about that? Do you think there might be a little bit too sensitive? Or are we going to pass it? Yeah, I'm going with sensitive. I think you can cause the one to name. Right. Okay. So then that doesn't classes harm. So I feel like, and don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to fix the world right now. I'm no social engineer apart from it. And it's not something I really want to take on. But fundamentally, before we can do that work successfully, we have to do the work successfully, internally, because there's no way we can learn how to relate with others unless we've done some work to learn how to relate with self. Because all the things we can think and do to others we can think and do to ourselves. Well, no, you know, like, not all things, but you know what I'm saying? So how can we learn to love anybody else? If we don't love ourselves? How can we learn to forgive anyone else? If we don't forgive ourselves? How can we learn not to judge others, if we judge ourselves? Now, I'm not saying any of this is easy, you know, but I never have. I've never said there's a magic bullet to any of this. And all we try and do in this podcast is to talk about the human condition, and then suggest that there are many, many, many often ancient modalities and utilities available to us to put into practice to ease the concept of human suffering. My experience my just my experience for me. And this incidentally, listeners, if you've never listened to this show before was it's only really began, my mom died in 2014 went through, I was already really in the lowest of the low, but then I got even lower if that were possible. It was only really, you know, the early stages of that, but then even still 2019, age 43 or whatever. 4343 I think when I really started to make some headway changes, and you know, hence we're having these sort of conversations now. So the point is, is there is no magic bullet, it can take a long time to to come across some of this stuff. But there is real sense in a lot of these teachings to understand. So it's not just intellectually, you know, I'm conscious when we have some of these conversations, it might feel to people. Yeah, that's all well and good. You have an intellectual conversation about that. But what about the real world? Well, you know, I'm from the real world, Chris is from the real world. So, and we suffered. And we're choosing to sit here at ceclor on a Monday morning and have a conversation about suffering, with a view to growing from it with a view to evolving past some of it. I think
Chris Siracuse 1:01:19
that's the idea. Yeah, I dig it. I definitely dig it. Cool. The obstacle is the way so I want to see colours the way Oh, yeah. I love that. Yes. Great. Title is a great title.
Martin O'Toole 1:01:31
I've read the book, so I can't I can't speak to it.
Chris Siracuse 1:01:33
Oh, sorry. You don't really have to title. Well, I dig it, man. Yes. As usual. Very well put. I wish I had some more to add to that. But you got it. covered pretty well.
Martin O'Toole 1:01:44
You're suffering with a hangover? No, no,
Chris Siracuse 1:01:46
I'm good. Actually had the coconut. I kind of want another coffee though. I like longer episodes nowadays. It's
Martin O'Toole 1:01:51
just still rough in it so we can keep talking for let's say, you're lucky. No, of
Chris Siracuse 1:01:55
course. Absolutely. I'm gonna have fun talking. Yeah. Especially. Same here. So okay, yeah. Let's just see if we can get a coffee. Let's do two of those bad boys,
Martin O'Toole 1:02:05
Yogi. Hey, bro, can we please get a do our lucky coffees? Latte latte? Dengan. Yeah, thanks, bro.
Chris Siracuse 1:02:20
Yeah, man, I don't know. It's I guess sometimes I'm tired. I think that's really, really what it comes down to. for me. It's like, Yeah, I know that it's part of it. I know that that suffering is part of this. Just sometimes you're like I think a lot of people feel that way.
Martin O'Toole 1:02:44
Yeah, well, it's. But you do if if you don't have I think if you if you're not lucky to have some people around you who have a different perspective, if you're not lucky enough to have the utilities to hand to help you get to help you kind of try to rise above some of this stuff. Of course, it's exhausting. I think that's a thing. And I think, as you saw, I think environment. I'm going to say environment. I mean, our social groups as well. I think that plays a huge part in in how we deal with this stuff.
Chris Siracuse 1:03:20
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when you talk about those people that you were talking about earlier, that say no, I will I'll never get over it. You know, this is this is my lot in life. This is this is what I'm stuck with. Do you think and I think it's different for for everybody. But do you think when people say that just generally speaking? Is it coming from a place of thinking, Oh, well, this is I kind of know what's in store for me in this iteration. Right. And they have this deep down a very, like innate understanding of what it is they're here to do in this life. And that really, that's to interrupt that, again, to come back to this theme of the obstacle is the way to interrupt that is actually I don't know, like, not productive in the end. I mean, I don't know because you're right, like if given different circumstances, given a different environment, given, you know, they're around different people, things could be different for them. But what if what if that that idea that they have, and, you know, that conclusion, they've come to a smooth, very deep understanding within themselves like no, this is, this is my, my journey in this iteration. And I don't know. It's
Martin O'Toole 1:04:38
like, No, that's a really good question. I I believe that everyone can change. Because I know unequivocally that impermanence is the one universal constant. So in constants, is a constant. So if If everything around me can change, and I can change, we know actually, every seven years every cell in our body regenerates. So literally, every seven years you you're a completely new person. And I don't believe in the adage, a leopard never changes spots. I don't believe in the adage, you can't teach an old dog new tricks because there's an old dog here, sit in talking to you, it was learn some new tricks. What some people would say, late in the game, you know, people get into their 40s especially, and I think I think they think that's it, that's my lot. This is the way I live, this is the way the world is, there's nothing I can do to fucking change it. I'm just gonna get on with it. You know, shit happens, yada, yada. I'm respectfully saying there's another perspective. And that is everything can always change, we can always change now, does that mean that there will not be bad things happening in the world? No. Doesn't the Buddhists refer to this existence in third density life as samsara and it basically basically means the cyclical existence of pain and suffering, of life and death, you know, life and death, that cycle being suffering the whole thing? You know, it's kind of bizarre if you think that we would, as a as a higher dimensional entity, sign up for such madness. But we do. But then I believe we do that out of choice. Because living here on planet Earth is one of the toughest things. Anything can do. Any entity could do. It's a test. School. I've talked about this before.
Chris Siracuse 1:06:43
So, yeah, um, can I jump in here? Because I'm with you.
Martin O'Toole 1:06:46
Thank you, brother. Thank you, bro.
Chris Siracuse 1:06:49
I'm with you. And I like I like the way that you put that. I think it's about the the rate of change though right? The speed at which things change.
Martin O'Toole 1:06:58
As in Can we can we choose the rate of change? Right,
Chris Siracuse 1:07:02
exactly. Because I was having a very interesting conversation. You know, Rishi, yesterday, my co host with what's what on the green house podcast channel. Check it out. It's
Martin O'Toole 1:07:12
great. What's what, by the way, is an incredible podcast. So I really invite everybody to listen to that it. Let's talk about that. Just briefly.
Chris Siracuse 1:07:20
Well, yeah. So what's what it's part of the greater house podcast channel, available on Spotify. So Rishi, my good friend, Rishi Krishna, we talk about counterculture philosophy and literature from the 50s 60s 70s inspired by some of the great minds Yep, inspired by the what's what actually comes from the the novel island by Aldous Huxley in the novel, there's an old king, the old Raja of this imaginary island called Paula. And this this king had this it was kind of like the Bible. It was notes on what's what and what to do about it. So that's where the title comes from. A quick aside their name. Yeah, it's all good.
Martin O'Toole 1:08:05
But Aldous Huxley, Timothy Leary, Alan Watts you brought in some of the greats. Yeah,
Chris Siracuse 1:08:09
Krishna Murthy. Actually, we're doing an episode we're recording an episode tomorrow. Hopefully if I can stop being lazy, about rom das and Timothy Leary. Their whole super to my favourite guys, man. You know their story, right? Yeah. Well, in part yeah, I'm gonna send you a documentary.
Martin O'Toole 1:08:24
They were kicked out of Harvard, for working with psychedelics. Yep. It's incredible.
Chris Siracuse 1:08:29
Have you seen the documentary? dying to know? No. Okay. I'm gonna send it to you. Please do. Yeah, that's good. Okay, so sorry, I digress. I seriously digress. Anyway, I was talking to Ruth. She's brother in law. Right. Rishi sister and her husband were in Bali, visiting a couple months ago. And it's so interesting because Rishi is kind of like the black sheep. Like she got a lot of tattoos. She's super hip restaurant. She was in Bali. Her sister is very, like, very orderly. You know, she's a clinical researcher. Yeah, she's about to have a baby. And her husband, Santa and Indian family. They're an Indian family. And they live in the UK, you know, very, very, like proper Indian family. awesome people. But my point is that I was having this conversation with Sam and Aisha Aisha is Rishi sister, and Sam is her husband. And, and two really incredible human beings. They're both clinical researchers. And they study they study viruses, I think. So, topical, topical, and if you know me know that I have certain ideas about things and if you know, Martin, you certainly know that his ideas about things. So I was talking to Sam Mosley. And he was he was describing this work that he was doing, I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of like butcher the science. I'm going to stay away from the scientific details, but essentially what they were doing is they were, they were skipping many, many generations of whatever. I think it was. It was some kind of it wasn't This work wasn't about viruses, it was about cellular reproduction. And what they were doing is they were, they were skipping multiple generations with this work. And the idea being that like, oh, we can we can control this, we can control this reproduction, and we can actually skip all these mistakes is what he said, right? And he was saying, we can nitpick mistakes, genetic mistakes, okay, and the reason I bring this up, I'm gonna come full circle with this, because it's like, it's very, very relevant to what we're talking about now. Because it just occurred to me in that moment, I was like, well, but isn't there something to be learned in those mistakes isn't by like, by skipping over all of that, you're completely the I mean, you're completely discarding all of the the suffering to bring it back to the theme but that cell has to go through in order to evolve to the point it's at you're just saying oh, we can we can skip over all of that. And we can say oh, it because we're humans because we have powerful brains and we're able to manipulate the physical world that we can we can we can circumvent that. And it just the reason I bring that up now is because we were talking about the rate of change Yep. And that's that was exactly he's like well why why why wait multiple generations when we have the ability to make a Hackett Exactly. We have the ability to hack it could point genetically modify it and but it made me think I was like, but there's, there's there's something beautiful and magical about the the suffering that takes place and the correction and the learnings place and the learning. Yeah, exactly. Even at a cellular level, I forget, again, I don't know the the exact science. But this is this gets to this very, very clear separation or distinction in worldviews. And a lot of it comes out of this whenever I talk to science minded people, firstly, they a lot of them do not believe in God, they believe all of life is an accident. This is a theme that I've noticed, like throughout, since I've talked to a lot of scientists, and early on in my career, I did a lot of science, filmmaking, natural history, filmmaking. And they do believe that we as humans, because we have these powerful brains, because we're, like I said, able to manipulate the physical world, that not only can we skip over all that and increase the frequency of change the speed of change, but that we should, because that's actually beneficial to us. I don't believe that though. That's, that's I guess that's what I'm getting at is that I'm not I'm not comparing what you're saying, as far as you know, setting the right conditions for a human being in order for them to, to change faster. That's obviously very different than modifying a cell's genetic material. But the idea is still the same, which is, we have the ability to accelerate this. So why shouldn't we do what I'm saying?
Martin O'Toole 1:12:49
I do. I do. And we talk weird, but we've talked about hacking, before growth, hacking, and so on and so forth. I ultimately, we're all here to live our individual stories in whichever way they play out. But we do have the ability to change them. Hang on correction. I don't think we have the ability to change the the some of the events that occurred to us, well, no, we do we do. Well, they do sell choice that well,
Chris Siracuse 1:13:24
this is exactly it. And this is why I brought up that story of Sam talking about the modifying the genetics because that's it he they were saying, Well, we do have the ability to do this. Why shouldn't we?
Martin O'Toole 1:13:37
Absolutely. And if you think about the typical human story Chris's stories of doing this, he's off doing that. Let's say you're on your let's say you were you were going to go to the shop. Do I Do I take a motorbike? Or do I take a car? Two choices. If I go on the motorbike? Do I wear a helmet? Do I not wear a helmet? Another two choices. Don't wear a helmet. Chris falls off the bike bangs his head. This actually happened by the way, listen. Yeah. And now you drive a car. Yeah. So another choice Yeah,
Chris Siracuse 1:14:12
the ladder I made that choice. But the point
Martin O'Toole 1:14:14
being there are there are a great many things that happen to us in life that are about our personal choices. Now, I'm not saying for a moment that the heinous shit that happens to you in your life. Perhaps you had any choice in But ironically, we might have had a choice if something bad happened to us in a certain location because we could have chosen to go another way. But we don't know that. That's not what I'm saying. But so please try not to be black and white when you're when you're conceiving what we're discussing here. But ultimately, a lot of this stuff does come down to choice. We can choose to continue to be on the hamster wheel, you know, with the beginnings of chance with our head, Unbowed, babba, bam. Just going to keep fighting The system and fighting this shit and you know getting through life nine to five, eat sleep work, drink alcohol, fuck pay taxes, or there's we can consider another way, start making more conscious choices. Now I'm not saying everybody in the world is unconscious. That's not the point when I'm saying that we're all on different journeys at different paces different levels, as you were talking about in terms of, you know, different stages of change. But how conscious Are we all being? That's the question. And that's not a question for me, or that's not something I can answer. That's something I would invite everybody to ask themselves as I do, every day, not just every day, actually, every few minutes, how conscious Am I being. And that comes down to breath, actually. So there's a practical utility for you just breathe, actually take a conscious breath, one conscious breath is in meditation, if you can get that down, and you can take two 510. Before you know you might be meditating for an hour, then and this is this, this is the work that helps us be more conscious. And consider our suffering, consider forgiveness, consider our place in the world and ask ourselves Is there a better way for me to be?
Chris Siracuse 1:16:15
I'm so down with all of that. What I would add to that is that, in, in our, our pursuit of consciousness, and awareness, increased awareness. Let's also remember that we are part of a larger system here and that we should not interrupt that system in a way that's that's detrimental to to ourselves and to the system that we exist in tow. And I think that's a lie. Like, I know that you you get it, you know, when you're saying that I understand what you're what you're saying. I agree. I do think though, and getting back to the more science minded people, I think a lot of them would say, Well, yeah, I'm very conscious. I'm very aware. I think they define it differently. Yeah. And there's there's an awareness and knowledge.
Martin O'Toole 1:17:02
I respect that truth. Yeah, I
Chris Siracuse 1:17:04
respect it, too. I think it's incredibly dangerous, though. That's the thing, because you get to a point where you're so aware, I don't know if conscious is the right way to put it. Because I know how you're saying consciousness, but I think I think some people, especially people that are are more intellectual, you know, that don't have necessarily have that connection to, to the spiritual realm to God, for lack of a better term, would say, Well, yeah, this is this is my awareness. This is my consciousness. And if I do have the ability to manipulate my environment, in order to make things more beneficial for me, then why shouldn't I? And I guess I don't know what I'm saying. Other than like, there's, there is this line that we we have to walk because it's almost, you know, the the old ignorance is bliss. Yeah. adage, right? As trite as that is, there's something to that, because there is, you can feel like fully expressed and fully embodied sometimes when you don't really know a lot, you just kind of feel it. Right. So I guess that's what I'm advocating for the consciousness shouldn't be to intellectualise the consciousness should be more. I don't know more instinctual, and more more emotional than intellectual.
Martin O'Toole 1:18:20
You make a wonderful point. And if I can find the full definition, there's a there's a Sanskrit mantra Lokah, sukhi no, bhavan tu. To you heard this?
Chris Siracuse 1:18:38
Was that Sanskrit? Yeah,
Martin O'Toole 1:18:39
no, no car, samasta Sukhino Baba to the mantra people mentioned. And it's, it's one of the it's one of the goodies, the real goodies, because it translates as May all beings be happy. Vulture I'll read the whole thing, fire may all beings everywhere, be happy and free. And may the thoughts words and actions of my own life, contribute in some way to the happiness and to that freedom for all. So I've got my own story going on. May I be happy? But actually, what am I doing every day to ensure that everybody else is happy? Now? It's not just so obviously. Number one, do no harm take, right. But that's the basic that's the, that's the bare minimum that we all ought to be considering. And actually took me a long time to work this one out because I was I was doing harm all over the place for for years, amongst various people, friends, business partners, wives, girlfriends. Just random sexual partners. I was I was doing harm on different levels, you know, obviously depends who that who they were and what the interaction was. And that was actually doing a great deal of it. Because I was being unconscious. I was just serving my myself with what I felt I needed incidentally, because I'd grown up in a, in a strange familial environment which man, I had a fucked up version of what normal was made of up to version of, of what my relationship with females should be, and alcohol, and substances. But what I love about that mantra, it's not just about it no point does it, ask for anything, that May all beings be happy everywhere. Sorry, it may or may all beings everywhere, be happy and free, made the thoughts, words and actions of my own life, contribute in some way to that happiness. And to that freedom for all. What a mantra.
Chris Siracuse 1:20:45
That's pretty epic, isn't it? Well, I think that that I'm glad that you that you captured it with that mantra. Because I think that's what I'm trying to say. Which is, yeah, we can and we should. We should do certain things to increase our own health and happiness. But that should also serve the health and happy should benefit
Martin O'Toole 1:21:04
others. Right. Yeah, exactly. And I think that that maybe gets to the, to the heart of your last question. I did. I did something called the tapper burrata, which is seven day silent retreat, in The Jungle Book near tabernacle in Northwest Bali. Now for those of you that know about Silent retreats, there's something called VIP passionate, which is quite famous Indian, once rather more militant think, in its approach, but this silent retreat I attended you. There is no technology, no books, no paper, no pens, no pencils, and obviously no noise. So you don't you don't communicate with one another. And actually, even though you spend time together in a space, you will eat together, but you're not even to communicate via your eyes. So no, I know eye contact. So essentially, you spend seven days in total isolation. And obviously the teacher there's a beautiful soul called pack Mirta adder who's a Balinese healer. He, He guides you through this whole process, his process, the Tibetan process. But May all beings be happy is he is he because he's he was obviously originally Hindu, Balinese, and was the Hindu because he's a Buddhist now anyway. So he's taken all these mixed these practices between Balinese Hinduism, kind of animism as well, but also Chinese medicine and Buddhism and created this wonderful programme. And the whole point is, from day one, you learn this mantra, May all beings be happy, says in a beautiful Balinese voice, May all beings be happy. May all beings be happy. And that's what he introduces invites you to do at the start of every meditation through the whole meditation. Anyway, the point is, so for the six days, we're doing May all beings be happy, loving kindness, meditations all day, meditation, meditation, meditation, sending love out to the world. And on the last day, he invites you suddenly, to turn that love on yourself. May I be happy? Now I had a really intense few days, as I've never done anything like this before. And lots of things came up for me lots of memories, lots of lots of trauma that I'd cause for other people actually, not the other way around. Because I was sending love to them. So I suppose it makes sense that you suddenly remembering things that you've done, that, you know, actually with hindsight of harmed people, right. And the moment he said, turn that love on yourself, may I be happy, I did it. And I just broke down. I just started sobbing, and sobbing and sobbing and sobbing. And I realised that this was kind of like the first time I'd really low learn to love myself. It was a profound moment, and I can't really explain it with with all the gravitas required, but but the sobbing just became lighter, my body became lighter. And then the sobbing became tears of joy. Because I suddenly realised, Whoa, hang on a minute, this feels amazing. I can feel it in my chest cavity. I could feel how much how brilliant there was to actually love myself in a healthy way. Not in a narcissistic way. And that changed my whole jump. Right? It was a pivotal moment in my story. When was that? 2019 the backstory to that, by the way was in my early 20s I did this deep guided meditation with a with a spiritual guide I would call her and I'd never done anything like this before. Like ever, and that didn't really kind of understand the anything other than our our plane of existence. Even though I'd seen ghosts and shit when I was a kid, I think I'd sort of forgotten about it. And we did this gate deep guided meditation and there was suddenly presented with this character. She said, look for your highest self, and my other wasn't one of the highest self look for well just asked to meet your higher self. So, character turns up, right, there's, there's a dude here. Ask him a question. So I asked in my meditation, why am I here. And this character just said, you're here to learn to love. And it's like age 24 profound experience at that time. And then, of course, years of alcohol and addiction, self suffering, and yada, yada. I'd forgotten all about it. And then suddenly, fast forward to 2019, age 40, wherever that was. And I had this profound experience where I learned to love myself. And that then enabled me to turn that across for the rest of that day, then we're saying male being too happy again, I was able to kind of amplify that in a whole new way. That was a bit of a digression, but
Chris Siracuse 1:26:10
not so it's a lovely story. And yeah, I mean, I completely agree. It is this this delicate balance, though, that we have to strike, isn't it between, like, how do we nourish ourselves and love ourselves, while also doing that for other people? Because I think some people would take that, not your story specifically, but just the idea of loving yourself. And they would say, Well, you know, this, this is me loving myself taking what I need from the world. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, that's a beautiful story, though. And I, you've talked about was a POC. Not to add that to Otto. Yeah, you've talked about that before. And yeah, I think that is a really beautiful way to go about it. Because when you disconnect from everything like that, really, you got to look, you got to look at yourself. And you got to say, Okay, what am I gonna really do in here? Yeah, just it's a tricky one, though, man. It's a tricky one
Martin O'Toole 1:27:01
security, isn't it? I mean, I think that's the fundamental point, there is no, there's no magic pill for this stuff is not expected to happen overnight. It might take 45 years, might take 65 years.
Chris Siracuse 1:27:13
Back to the rate of change. And what's acceptable? Well, yeah, well, I would
Martin O'Toole 1:27:17
say it's all acceptable. That's the fundamental point, I think, I think the main question is, do we want it? Yeah, you know, do do we want? Do we want to grow? Do we want to evolve? Do we want to? Do we want to be happy? Do we want to die? Happy?
Chris Siracuse 1:27:35
Oh, nice.
Martin O'Toole 1:27:38
See what I did there? That was good. Because the reality is, you've got that long to work this out. But as we've said, a couple of times on this show, do you want to be that person who gets to the point where you're in the deathbed, the show's over. And you've got a long list of regrets that you now cannot possibly fit? I mean, that's, that's the beautiful, messy thing about being on Earth, isn't it? You know, that it actually. And that's why I think the Buddhists have given it a name because, ultimately, yeah, suffering is a part of life. But as the Buddha said, pain is a part of life, the suffering bit doesn't need to be part of your story going forward. So then all we have to do is ask ourselves, why is my suffering part of my identity? Perhaps you perhaps need to take a step back? What makes up my identity? And why does it make up my identity? Because I can change my story anytime we've discussed this. So if I can change my story, why am I holding on to this particular story? And what's in my story, you know, the one of the chapters were the multiple chapters? And do they all serve me? And do they all serve who I want to be and where I want to be in the future? Because if we do want to be a happier, a lighter, a more forgiving, more productive, growing person, then we're going to have to get rid of some of that shit. I can't remember who said this. Wonderful little meme I saw on the internet. You said yesterday's heavy. Put it down. That's pretty good. All right. Sorry. I can accredit whoever came up with that.
Chris Siracuse 1:29:30
That's good, though. I like that.
Martin O'Toole 1:29:31
It's a beautiful expression
Chris Siracuse 1:29:32
today is heavy. Down down with that.
Martin O'Toole 1:29:35
I'm down with that, too. I'm super down with it. It's a very, very simple way of explaining the futility of holding on to what's already happened to us regrets, but also, in reality, worrying about what hasn't happened yet. Because neither of those things they don't exist. You know, again, Eckhart Tolle says that the past doesn't exist, the future doesn't exist. Well, then what is the there is only the now there is only the present day. And if you want to drill that down to 30 seconds, because we can do that, the present right now what where we are right now? We're conscious.
Chris Siracuse 1:30:23
I'm very conscious,
Martin O'Toole 1:30:24
you're distracted by those two ladies.
Chris Siracuse 1:30:28
Busy. I'm sorry, I totally ruin that moment.
Martin O'Toole 1:30:32
Ironically, the opposite of conscious.
Chris Siracuse 1:30:36
But maybe in that that is I, I'm sorry, I really thought that moment you didn't
Martin O'Toole 1:30:40
because of you is that you are also aware that you were unaware I
Chris Siracuse 1:30:45
was aware. I was aware. Now this is man it the more we talk about it, the more it comes back to the same thing, right? Getting back tech. So to get back to that, I'm sorry, I fucked it up.
Martin O'Toole 1:30:59
No, no, it's fine. A moment? No, I don't think I don't think you did. Because it ultimately comes down to what we think and do in every present moment. Right? So and we might fuck it up, as you just said, but then if we are aware that we fucked it up, then we didn't fuck it up. And it's a really beautiful point to make I was I was writing something for somebody the other day about the observer, those being the observer of ourselves. So you know, I said, I talked about this a lot, we're not the, you're not the voice in your mind, you know, the voice in your head. You're the entity watching or observing the voice in your head. So you can get to that level of consciousness. Okay, I'm not the voice in my head, I'm observing the voice in my head, then, then if you can realise that you're observing the let's say, the monkey, observing the monkey, the ego. But then if you can become the observer of the observer, then you're in another higher level of consciousness. After coffee and a half. All right,
Chris Siracuse 1:32:10
okay. All right. Where does it end, though?
Martin O'Toole 1:32:14
Well, well,
Chris Siracuse 1:32:15
I suppose where does it just circle back?
Martin O'Toole 1:32:18
The debate is it doesn't really need to end because actually, if if all we all did, as humans living in samsara, in third density was actually became more aware, and then became aware that we were aware that's enough. Jeez, that would, that would raise the that would raise the collective consciousness are aware that we're aware? Are you aware?
Chris Siracuse 1:32:39
I am I aware? Wouldn't that put us back to the same iOS? Oh, if we weren't aware at all, that we're just that we just that we just do that? We just are? No,
Martin O'Toole 1:32:46
because if we're aware that we're aware than we are, we're going to be making more conscious choices.
Chris Siracuse 1:32:51
So why I'm down and I'm, I'm with you, somewhat. Somewhat, again, looking to natural law, looking at the natural world looking at other animals that aren't as aware, sentient or aware as us that that they just do they really they they really just exist they really just Are they really embody a lot of these these principles that are the core a lot of these philosophies that we talk about. They just be they just be So have they just gone through that whole process? I mean, if you if you look if you believe in reincarnation, right. And you believe that that we that we circle back and that they were we're elevating we're expanding consciousness, right? We're transcending the physical forms. What? Are they more evolved? No, it kind of seems like they are a cool
Martin O'Toole 1:33:46
slant ism is a praying mantis, one of the most evolved evolved entities on the planet has it
Chris Siracuse 1:33:53
just doesn't even have to go through that process. It no longer suffers and no longer it's just it's
Martin O'Toole 1:33:57
there is an argument to say that that's not the case. Because the moment we we fulfil all of our karma. So we've lived many, many, many past lives. And then we've ultimately worked it out, then there's the we don't need to come back here.
Chris Siracuse 1:34:13
Okay, is that they're back here. Where did they go that?
Martin O'Toole 1:34:16
Well, there's, there's well, there's also a debate to say that, that insects and other creatures on the planet, they're not they're not the same type of consciousness. So they are they belong to the to the earth consciousness. And we don't. We are where we are connected to it. But we are also not if that makes sense. So we're separate. We're separate. Types of consciousness, different type of consuming human beings. Well, yeah, but I mean, human being is always in my perspective and a human being is this a bot? It's an earth rover, this thing it says BioSuit it's a very complex, incredible piece of technology that enables me my consciousness to be on this planet to be in this plane.
Chris Siracuse 1:34:59
Well, I mean, there is some have been different about us. I mean, there surely is for sure there is. I'm down though. So awareness. So as long as it stops with the awareness of the awareness well, so when I get to many levels of awareness,
Martin O'Toole 1:35:11
well, it's like Inception isn't It's like that movie. You know, you can keep going. But I fundamentally believe that if if more people just became aware, what did I think and what did I just think and do? Let's start there. What did I just think? Play back over the thoughts? Okay, now I'm aware. Now sit with it. Okay, and I'm actually aware that I'm aware and I
Chris Siracuse 1:35:35
I do love that I do love the idea that we are actually the observer. We're we're the How did you put it? Yeah, or the witness the observer or not the voice in our head where they live and witness that's exactly it's listening to that.
Martin O'Toole 1:35:48
Yeah. And I talk about this talk about this in the book that I'm writing that I call ego how to die happy. Still looking for an agent by the way, if you're listening, I talk about the ego. I talk about ego in terms of the the ego the super ego, so talk about Freud's perspective and ego but I also talked about Ryan holidays book. Ego is the Enemy because he does a great job of convincing the reader the Ego is the Enemy and he's in one perspective, I agree with him but on the other I disagree that Ego is the Enemy because ego is part of self. So if you're going to treat a part of yourself as though it's a sworn enemy, yeah, in my mind anyway, feels like you're creating internal conflict. You gotta love You gotta love ego. And for me, you got to I see ego is cheeky monkey. And the monkey cheeky monkey
1:36:43
Martin O'Toole 1:36:54
I see ego is is the cheeky monkey. And I've written about this in the book where I talk about how for the first 40 plus years of my life, the monkey was driving the earth rover, kind of like joyriding.
Chris Siracuse 1:37:10
That's such a great visual. Cheeky little monkey getting in your earth rover
Martin O'Toole 1:37:16
and just throwing it around, throwing that motherfucker around and think about you know how how a monkey would drive an earth rover? Well, you know occasionally, monkey was on the road occasionally he was off road off road quite largely crashing into all the other Earth rovers having so much fun having a great time because you know, at big tires, it was a robust and agile Earth rover, certainly in his 20s and early 30s.
Chris Siracuse 1:37:42
This would be clear Martin is talking about himself
Martin O'Toole 1:37:47
observing the observer, so
Chris Siracuse 1:37:49
robust and agile.
Martin O'Toole 1:37:51
But but there are a lot of dents and scratches in the earth rover as a result of that monkey the monkey never got a driver's licence
Chris Siracuse 1:38:03
such a great visual I wish that we could have a little animated secret cheeky monkey just driving around maybe one day when Martin shaped car
Martin O'Toole 1:38:14
which now has been involved in in countless fender benders I think more than fender benders but well there were there were several hit and runs as well. Okay and cheeky monkey almost totaled that thing. Look Yeah, you're right so so and all the while consciousness was bundled in the boat, or the trunk as you would call it. Right And anyway, I don't know what happened and how this happened. But then consciousness then got into the backseat was able to see what monkey was doing. And now what I'm doing on a daily basis is is saying hey, monkey, Get your hands off the wheel. You sit in the back. I'm driving. And I'm driving along now. Hey, guess what? I'm driving slower and not crashing into stuff. If I am nearly in an accident because every once in a while monk those little hairy hands grab hold of the wheels and just for a moment I'm able to a slap the hairy hand and be stop and apologise to the other Earth rovers
Chris Siracuse 1:39:17
sorry, it was the cheeky monkey that excuse is gonna fly because of me. A cheeky my
Martin O'Toole 1:39:25
Well, it was a cheeky monkey aka ego now it is a part of me
Chris Siracuse 1:39:29
all jokes aside, I that is such a well, I don't know. I hesitate to say beautiful. It's a it's a vivid illustration.
Martin O'Toole 1:39:37
David good good.
Chris Siracuse 1:39:38
Yeah, it's you really grasp what you're saying through that? Yeah, that's uh huh. So now I'm thinking about myself and how hot that cheeky little
Martin O'Toole 1:39:49
monkey tries you as a monkey or I mean you can choose any animal could be I think a monkey
Chris Siracuse 1:39:53
is pretty I mean for you definitely the monkey that seems that seems fun. And I think mine is like a four rabid dog or something. Oh, know what it is
Martin O'Toole 1:40:03
with opposable thumbs?
Chris Siracuse 1:40:05
Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. And drive the human hands. But yeah, yeah, man, wow, okay, I love talking to you, it's, it's really even know where to go with that, well,
Martin O'Toole 1:40:15
well, I suppose the place to go. So we've been talking for about an hour and 45. So maybe the place to go is just to leave our listeners and viewers thinking about that, you know, if, if there's a way of, of managing to, to just ask monkey to sit in the backseat for a little while, you might have to give monkey a little slap, sticks, some gaffa tape over his mouth, you might to tie his hands or hers, obviously, or bears to be inclusive. But that is a way of, of becoming more aware. And for me anyway, that was the beginning. So when I can become aware of me and my actions, or the thoughts I had in the last five minutes, because that's probably the best place to start, then I've got something to work with. And then we can do that work on a on a larger and larger and larger scale. And we can start to go back over the story, go over the Chris story go over the Martin story. That's not hard. That's not easy work. By the way, it's called Shadow Work, and it fucking sucks. It's really dark, you have to go back over all of these traumatic incidents, you have to remember what monkey did what you did. And you have to sit with that in the searing pain of those events. The obstacle is the way and but it can be done. And it can be done in such a way that your body and mind then eventually become used to remembering those things with compassion with forgiveness, you no longer suffer. And Nikolas quantum healing by the way, you know, there's it's if you can go back, using presence and meditation to to heinous life events might not be something that happened to you maybe something that you did, but you are aware, was still a heinous event you caught suffering. And you can really sit with it in in the heat of it all. But then see it's impermanent, you can let it go. So we do literally have the ability to heal ourselves. And I think that's certainly a utility that people might want to take on board to consider a concept of suffering. So you can do that at the same time as remembering that everything's impermanent. Remember, in the clinging and attachment of the things that cause suffering, and I feel like we're all in a, we've got, we stand a chance of being able to say, Goodbye, thank you. Thank you for the trauma for the gift of trauma, but it no longer serves me at the same time as saying, right, what's next? Because now I got newfound perspective. Now I'm aware, sometimes I'm aware that I'm aware.
Chris Siracuse 1:42:55
I do get in the spirit of balance. So I'm going to offer another perspective. I like it not not to counter this perspective, because I'm down. I love everything you just said. I think you know that I believe this. And I know this about you that you serve a very important role for a lot of people. And I think you've had some really great feedback. I actually had some really great feedback and want to share with you to somebody reached out and essentially said to me, what you said other people had told you about like this really helped me like helping someone myself and I love that. And I want to take away from that. Just want to offer in the spirit of of equilibrium and know the truth and balance. Yes. To quote another brilliant work of American cinema, Batman.
Martin O'Toole 1:43:44
I love how you doing this.
Chris Siracuse 1:43:47
So what was the butler's name? Alfred. Alfred. So it was the I forget which Batman was was one of the ones with Heath Ledger. I guess the only one with Heath Ledger where he plays the Joker.
Martin O'Toole 1:43:59
Yeah, Batman Begins. No,
Chris Siracuse 1:44:01
this is one of those. Yeah, it was Yeah. One of them. There's so many of them. But let me get one with Yeah, exactly. Heath Ledger. So Alfred says, you know, Batman and Alfred are having this discussion about about evil, basically and about about the Joker and like, you know, what kind of why is he doing this and Alfred says to Batman, some men just like to see the world burn. So, again, just acknowledge with everything that we've said and alleviating the suffering and doing our best to not make it worse. We also have to have that recognition that there are some people for whatever reason, that are in this life in this iteration, that they will just want to watch the world burn and cause pain and cause pain. So how do we how do we keep that in check? How do we mitigate that? How do we allow for understanding and compassion of like, like you said before, with like why those things happen whilst still protecting ourselves and still continuing on this journey? Totally. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's it's a tricky one. But yeah, man, I'm down. And I'm looking forward to hanging out with you more and engaging with these utilities because I need, I definitely need them. I'm like going through this phase right now. I'm just I'm getting wrapped up into the whole barley party life. Yeah, yeah, I need I need some, some Martin, love and smarten assistance, mindfulness, mindfulness techniques, I need some of these, these these different tools that you have plenty of,
Martin O'Toole 1:45:34
well, you know, I got them to share. And I suppose that's probably a good place to end the conversation to anybody listening and resonating with what Chris just said, Just take him just take it slowly. You know, like, I know, it's a might be a cliche to some but one step at a time. Yeah. We are all at different levels. of our growth, we're different. We're different ages, we're in different stages of the journey. And, and no one of us is better or worse than the other. Everything is perfect all of the time, and did so. So fundamentally, it comes down to choice, do you want to? Do we want to continue on that journey, unconsciously, with the monkey driving the earth rover? Or is it time for monkey to get in the backseat. And if that's the case, then cool man, then you just made a major conscious choice. This stuff, we're never going to learn all of this stuff. You know, I'd like to live until I was in my 80s. At least, I'm never going to learn it all. But one of the things I learned not too long ago is that I know nothing. And I will always know nothing. But it's not going to stop me trying to learn more about myself and more about you and her and him and other people around me because we're all in this together. We're all Earth school together, whether we like it or not. So it strikes me that we really ought to take that opportunity to learn as much as we can about one another. And because actually, every one of these people, you included has got stuff to teach me. We're all teachers, and we're all learners. So I think there's a real beauty in that. And just speaking to the thing you said, prior, I think there are only two things we can do about the men who want to see the world burn one. avoid them if possible.
Chris Siracuse 1:47:35
That's the first one
Martin O'Toole 1:47:36
right and I talked about the Drama Triangle many many times Cartman Drama Triangle ke RP n a n for those of you with the the ability to Google stuff with opposable thumbs, check out but Carmen's Drama Triangle, because there actually is there is a way of avoiding a lot of those people and those situations and those environments. So avoid it if you can. But then too, if you can't avoid it, and somebody does some shit to you, then you've got a real simple choice to make. Am I going to carry that forever? Or am I going to transmute that? And we're going to see where that where the lesson was? Because there is always a lesson. And actually, this comes back to what you said at the start of this conversation. There is a lesson in suffering. There is a lesson in all suffering, it might be impossible for some people to see. And some for those of you that have been the unfortunate victims of some of the most heinous crimes possible. Please know that I'm saying this with with absolute compassion and love for you and what you're going through and what you've gone through, but there is still a lesson in it. And if we can see those lessons, then we can let go of it.
Chris Siracuse 1:48:46
I love it. Great way to end it.
Martin O'Toole 1:48:49
Me. Great to speak to you.
Chris Siracuse 1:48:51
It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me back. I missed.
Martin O'Toole 1:48:54
We need to we need to do it again. No, absolutely.
Chris Siracuse 1:48:58
And this is so fun. We'll have another chinwag Yeah, two hours went by like that. Yeah. helped some food.
Martin O'Toole 1:49:04
I hope listeners could say the same thing. Yeah, no, I
Chris Siracuse 1:49:06
think they will. I think we we kept to the theme. We did. Yeah, we were on it. And we're on it. Yeah. Well, thank you again. And yeah, well, we'll do it again soon. Yeah.
Martin O'Toole 1:49:17
Now let's get some breakfast let's do shall a toast by the way. So if anybody's ever in the territory of being in in Ottawa to thoroughly recommend this place, it's a beautiful bamboo structure. And Chris and I tend to have the Chela toast which is poached eggs. Spinach, kale, mushroom, oyster mushrooms, mushrooms. Oh, and some hummus moss. All right. Let's see. See Martin
